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Kirk - should there be a "mentor" on the Enterprise?

Well yeah, they tried to go from his childhood to captaincy in one film and I think they rushed it. They could have jumped from the Academy to his being a Lt or Lt. Cmdr, possibly on the Enterprise. A new, and very young XO on the Enterprise. Maybe No.1 got her own ship, and Kirk is the new XO.

It makes more sense, and its a nice parallel to his father. Young XO, with the Captain down, and facing down the very ship that took out his own father when in an eerily similar point in his career. And then does what Pike dared him too: he does the old man one better. Saves the day and the ship.

But they just didnt do that. They stopped the forward progress of the story while still in the Academy and set the rest of the movie there.
 
Oh man. If there were a flash forward then we'd be arguing "Why didn't they show us all those adventures in between that lead to Kirk getting his promotion". Can of worms. "They cheated!" would be the next accusation.
 
Everyone has a learning curve. Even if you are a natural, you are human and a greenhorn, and its going to show. OldTrek Kirk froze and watched another crew member die and then the same creature killed half the crew of his ship. He blamed himself, even though he later learned that firing his phaser wouldnt have stopped the creature anyhow.

The point being is that no matter how whiz-bang you are in the classroom, on tests, and how promising you are in the field, you are still raw and green. Theres a learning curve there no matter who you are. Early in his career, Kirk did make mistakes, did freeze in critical situations under pressure, and learned alot from it.

If you replace that Kirk with an absurd cartoon cutout of a swaggering young hotshot knowitall who never makes a mistake, then you might still have money making eye candy for alot of generic popcorn munchers in the theaters, but dramatically, its shite.
 
Its actually hard to argue military protocol when it comes to Trek since as a tradition, it really has never minded going its own way. I mean if we're going to argue those particulars the Enterprise IS NOT A FLAG VESSEL.

adies and gentlemen, the maiden voyage of our newest flagship deserves more pomp and circumstance than we can afford today. A christening will just have to be our reward for a safe return. Carry on.
Capt. Pike
 
Oh man. If there were a flash forward then we'd be arguing "Why didn't they show us all those adventures in between that lead to Kirk getting his promotion". Can of worms. "They cheated!" would be the next accusation.

Its understood that you have to have flash forwards. They did that from his infancy to his being a thrill riding kid to being a barfly ne're-do-well in rapid succession. Thats fine. Its only 2 hours, so we get that. One more hop after a commendation for original thinking after cheating on the Kobayashi maru test, and thats it.
 
Kirk saved the Earth and countless Federation worlds by stopping a ship from the future that no one seemed to be able to stop (I'm assuming that Nero destroyed a bunch of Vulcan and Federation defense ships offscreen, before facing off against the Enterprise...) - that's impressive.

It wasn't exactly single handedly though.

It was his plan to have Spock pilot the "Jellyfish" away from Earth ...

I must have missed that.

I agree with your point about his lack of maturity though. The way the writers handle that will at least be interesting.


All those technicalities, they're pretty much dead on arrival in a film of this nature, they are in fact useless weight and beside the point.

Well yes, I agree, it does seem that any attempt to make sense or behave decently (see below) in a contemporary ST movie is now sadly "beside the point", as you put it. Still, we live in hope.

No,Spock did not "save Earth as much as Kirk" he had to be manipulated into taking the right actions by Kirk who had the proper instincts do what had to be done.

I think its clear that Spock did as much or more than Kirk to save the Earth. Sure, Kirk warned everyone about what was happening at Vuclan but it was Spock who, despite being "emotionally compromised" kept this head when Kirk wanted to go charging off after Nero with not a plan in sight. There can be little question that following Pikes orders was the correct decision at the time. Pike new it would have been suicide to go up against the Narada at short range and long range wasn’t yet an option. Chekov later agrees with Kirk that they need to stay invisible to Nero or he would destroy them. So its ironic Spock made the right decision, hard thought it must have been to ignore his desire for revenge, while Kirk "demonstrated his command abilities" by throwing a completely unbelievable (if "fortuitous") hissy fit and got himself thrown off the ship.

Then, when Kirk "luckily" came across the technical information (transwarp beaming) they needed to give them a fighting chance against Nero, he didn't tell Spock what he had discovered and give him the option of changing his mind. Spock could well have done so, he was making better decisions than Kirk was and he later volunteered to help when he knew the score. Instead Kirk deliberately keeps his boss in the dark (way to be a team player) in order to steal his command. I think we can ignore the writers' attempted rationalisation here.

And Kirk still didn't have a plan! Finally he comes up with: "Whatever the case, we need to get on board Nero’s ship undetected". Brilliant! But how? It was left to the crew and Spock (miraculously recovered from his mental breakdown after a quick pep talk) to work that out. Kirk just tagged along on the mission so the writers could give him the credit. I think we just assumed that Kirk saved the day, but that’s only because we expected him to. While they both put their lives at risk, it was of course Spock’s actions, with the help of the Enterprise, that destroyed the Narada and saved the Earth.

By the way, did anyone notice that after Nero ordered his crew to fire everything they had at the Jellyfish, the Enterprise easily managed to destroy the entire salvo! If the Enterprise's point defence was that good, why were they worried about Nero and his ship in the first place!?

As for promotions, they could have made Kirk first office under Pike and have the next movie start, four years down the track, with Kirk congratulating Pike on being made an admiral … .
 
As for promotions, they could have made Kirk first officer under Pike and have the next movie start, four years down the track, with Kirk congratulating Pike on being made an admiral .

That would seem to be one good option for a happy middle ground (perhaps as confirmation of a field promotion to LCDR given by Pike mid-way through the movie...?) but I have to agree with the sentiments expressed above: this was a commercial movie for general release to capture the broadest possible audience for the franchise and (regardless of what JJ and Co might have said) it was also the opening gambit of a blatant re-boot. Ergo it was ALWAYS going to end with Kirk taking command of the Enterprise.

All they had to do was be a bit more circumspect about presenting Kirk's laughably meteoric rise to Captain. Here's another possibility:

We know they flashed forward from Kirk and McCoy leaving on the shuttle and skipped over all the Academy years until the events of the Kobayashi Maru simulator, right? Well, all they had to do was have the disciplinary hearing scene, introduce nu-Spock, and then have Kirk "punishment" posted elsewhere (Republic or, better yet, Farragut...?) while the rest go off to join the Enterprise under Pike.

Then, flash forward a few years again to Lt Kirk meeting up with Dr McCoy on shore leave in San Francisco when the while Vulcan emergency thing occurs and, bingo, you can resume the script as it was with Kirk desperate to go along and McCoy smuggling him aboard Enterprise.

It's still not perfect but it would have been slightly more believable and wouldn't have radically changed either the length of the movie or any of the character arcs.

On the original topic of the thread, no, I don't think we'll see a "mentor" on the Enterprise. The writers have now established Kirk as the captain and that's it - move on. I do, however, think we'll see more of Bruce Greenwood as Admiral Pike and I hope they manage to give him more than just a cameo role in the next movie (which may or may not include some mentoring of Kirk...!).

He was undoubtedly one of the better features of the re-boot and seems to have been well received by fans and general audience alike. He's certainly carved himself a nice little niche in the nu-Trek canon and I hope they continue to use him and don't do anything daft like killing him off just for the sake of it.
 
He was undoubtedly one of the better features of the re-boot and seems to have been well received by fans and general audience alike. He's certainly carved himself a nice little niche in the nu-Trek canon and I hope they continue to use him and don't do anything daft like killing him off just for the sake of it.

Plus it would be nice to have at least one version of Pike who doesn't have something horrible happen to him, besides the brainslug thing that is.
 
Sounds a bit too TNG to me. Long winded and dull consultations. Not in the spirit of TOS which the film finally got back to.
 
I think if the next one is set a few years after the first (at least 5 years), it would be enough to develop a more mature Kirk. I can see having Pike being someone Kirk talks to but he does not need to be on board. Pike is essentially a father-figure to Kirk in this timeline. Kirk, like anybody, else will always be in the need of some mentoring. On TOS, I view McCoy as a bit of mentor to Kirk. Continue this in the next movie (plus it'd give Bones, my favorite, more of a role). It takes years to develop into a good Captain and I don't think of nuKirk as a good Captain, yet and I think we will see more of that development in the next movie. That's why I'm hoping it's a bit calmer in pacing and tone (which I would imagine it should be since we aren't doing 2 backstories at the same time) from the first. I think that's why I would prefer some sort of cerbral enemy (alien or machine, whatever works) to show nuKirk's development.
 
How about something like this. Pike leaves Star fleet and becomes the Ambassador to some planet. The Enterprise is charged with escorting pike to his post when they are attacked by some enemy. After Kirk causes the deaths of some crew members due to inexperience. Kirk goes to Ambassador Pike for advice. Pike tells Kirk when he did almost the same thing when he was first a captain. This erases Kirk self doubt and he goes on to meet the challenge.
 
The overwhelming majority of ticket buyers could give a rats-ass about Kirk being promoted to Captain of the Fleet flagship as a wet-behind-the-ears cadet. They want to see action...and the logic of it be damned!
 
What is sad about a film just being fun? Have we not been paying attention to how too much Treknobabble kills Star Trek???

Anyway, Kirk always knows better than anyone present who out ranks him what is best. He would just stall for time to put his own plan to work. Anything else isn't canon. :rofl:
 
Indeed. The studio knows that the Trek franchise can make money for them and that the majority of the wider audience will, at best, be no more than casual fans. It therefore stands to reason that what they're really looking for are responses that run along the lines of:
"Look at the size of that space battle - awesome!"
"Love the way he kicked that guy's ass - way cool!"
"Those phasers are neat"
"Man, she's hot...!"
"Man, he's hot...!"

...and not necessarily in that order! Anyway, you get the general idea. The finer nuances of in-universe realism (like say, um, the unrealistic promotion of a senior cadet to Captain of the "flagship") don't really figure all that highly.
 
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What is sad about a film just being fun? Have we not been paying attention to how too much Treknobabble kills Star Trek???

Its not the fun-ness thats sad. And is "being fun" mean that it cant also be smart? Thats not necessarily a trade-off is it? If it were Cmdr or Lt. cmdr Kirk taking over the Enterprise, that means no fun? Its only fun when Cadets become Captains? Theres no other way? I dont see why that would be.

Treknobabble isnt even an issue here. Part of making it smarter should be to dump silly thinks like excessive, silly babble-talk to give it the superficial veneer of sounding technical.
 
And hugely inflated hands and tongues.
And making Scotty sound like he's not on speed. He could get excitable in TOS but not 24/7
 
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