Kirk saved Spock Prime (and vice versa)?

[Franklin]

My 2 questions would be
1) Did Nero blow up the Klingon home world in order to avenge his time in the Prison?

and 2)I was wondering WHERE did Spock find the wood for the fire in the ice cave?

1. Apparently not. Though why is a good question. But since the imprisoned part is not in the movie, it's moot, too.

2. From the same place where he got the winter parka. Nero obviously outfitted him with just enough survival gear -- including food -- to get by for a while. Remember, Nero didn't want Spock to die, he wanted him to live with the same sense of loss he had.

 

[cubbie]

I am loving Franklin's analysis (and of course the rest of this conversation). I didn't look at the scene that way, but now I will.

 

[Lt. Trull]

There is one thing... spock prime taught kirk it's alright to cheat to win even if you have to defy the time line...

spock prime called kirk "old friend" many times.... at the transport back to the enterprise nuKirk told kirk "isnt that cheating" spock prime replied "a old friend taught me that" and they both knew he was talking about kirk prime.

so now... nuKirk thinks it's ok to win... even to cheat time.
1000 Yippie...

 

[Franklin]

There is one thing... spock prime taught kirk it's alright to cheat to win even if you have to defy the time line...

spock prime called kirk "old friend" many times.... at the transport back to the enterprise nuKirk told kirk "isnt that cheating" spock prime replied "a old friend taught me that" and they both knew he was talking about kirk prime.

so now... nuKirk thinks it's ok to win... even to cheat time.
1000 Yippie...

I groaned when I heard that line. Maybe Spock Prime meant Janeway. The sad thing is, it's a play to the Kirk stereotype by Orci and Kurtzman, who should know better. I defy anyone to show me a time Kirk literally cheated the timeline. In order, here are Kirk's trips back into time.
1. "The Naked Time": the crew was accidentally thrown a whole three days back into time.
2. "Tomorrow is Yesterday": accidental time travel. If anything, Kirk made sure the timeline was set straight and his ship returned to its proper time.
3. "The City on the Edge of Forever": With the aid of the Guardian, Kirk was trying to set the timeline back on its proper course, not cheat it.
4. "Assignment Earth": As observers, it became apparent to Kirk that he should not attempt to alter events.
5. "All Our Yesterdays": Kirk and the others were trying to save themselves, not change history.
6. "The Voyage Home": Go back in time and bring whales to the future. Nothing about the timeline itself was altered since Gillian was apparently supposed to disappear on the day she joined them.

That's it, folks. Six times. Two by accident. Once he was ordered to. Once he had to to set time straight. Once it was to save himself. Once it was to save the Earth in his time. Sorry. No cheating. Never. And only once was it really to change a timeline ("City"), and that was to put it on its proper course.

It's sad people think it's more than that. It's sadder that the writers played on that popular perception by giving Spock Prime such a crappy line.

 

[indranee]

I think that in the instance Franklin brings up, that the line was implied without actually being spoken aloud managed to get it across pretty nicely anyway.

Too many lines dropped like that could've gotten in the way. Maybe they could've traded out the tired, "I have been, and shall always be..." line from Spock Prime in exchange for that one. Especially since in this case, even if Spock Prime doesn't know it, speaking of command being Kirk's destiny in life has an entirely different meaning in this case.

There was one other place where I inserted my own little inside joke into the scene. When Uhura is on the transporter pad with Spock, as she walks away, she should've turned and said, "Spock, be careful." To which Kirk would reply to her, "WE will." TUC. McCoy to Spock after Spock tells Jim to be careful. Get it? Get it? Huh? Makes me laugh. God, it's fun to rewrite movies.

ohh! great minds think alike! I thought of this when I first watched that scene, and I've thought of it every time I've seen it since

Go Franklin!

 

[General Shran]

There is one thing... spock prime taught kirk it's alright to cheat to win even if you have to defy the time line...

spock prime called kirk "old friend" many times.... at the transport back to the enterprise nuKirk told kirk "isnt that cheating" spock prime replied "a old friend taught me that" and they both knew he was talking about kirk prime.

so now... nuKirk thinks it's ok to win... even to cheat time.
1000 Yippie...

I groaned when I heard that line. Maybe Spock Prime meant Janeway. The sad thing is, it's a play to the Kirk stereotype by Orci and Kurtzman, who should know better. I defy anyone to show me a time Kirk literally cheated the timeline. In order, here are Kirk's trips back into time.
1. "The Naked Time": the crew was accidentally thrown a whole three days back into time.
2. "Tomorrow is Yesterday": accidental time travel. If anything, Kirk made sure the timeline was set straight and his ship returned to its proper time.
3. "The City on the Edge of Forever": With the aid of the Guardian, Kirk was trying to set the timeline back on its proper course, not cheat it.
4. "Assignment Earth": As observers, it became apparent to Kirk that he should not attempt to alter events.
5. "All Our Yesterdays": Kirk and the others were trying to save themselves, not change history.
6. "The Voyage Home": Go back in time and bring whales to the future. Nothing about the timeline itself was altered since Gillian was apparently supposed to disappear on the day she joined them.

That's it, folks. Six times. Two by accident. Once he was ordered to. Once he had to to set time straight. Once it was to save himself. Once it was to save the Earth in his time. Sorry. No cheating. Never. And only once was it really to change a timeline ("City"), and that was to put it on its proper course.

It's sad people think it's more than that. It's sadder that the writers played on that popular perception by giving Spock Prime such a crappy line.

I think Spock's line refers to "cheating" in general, not cheating timelines. As in cheating death, Kobayashi Maru, changing circumstances to achieve the desired outcome. "Corbomite Maneuver" comes to mind.

 

[Minuialeth]

I like this thread. Lots of intelligent posters (until my arrival)

But Kirk's fortuitous arrival seemed to give him hope and got his mind working again. Kirk is here. If Kirk is here, there must be a chance. When he finds out Kirk is not in command of the Enterprise, that's the point at which he decides to take matters into his own hands.
Had he not convinced Kirk to take command, it's likely Kirk's Starfleet career would've ended ignominiously. Further, young Spock probably would've resigned from Starfleet, too.

And you can bet that Earth would have been destroyed!

You're right, Spock litterally comes alive when he realises that Kirk isn't in command of the ship. It gives him purpose.
That's touching because be it Kirk or nuKirk, it's like they need each other to function properly in crisis.

Jeri, yep. hence, in the end, young Spock says to Kirk: "Captain, what are you doing?"

he questions his order, but with no sense of the haughty "you shouldn't BE here, punk" attitude that he had toward Kirk before. Kirk has earned some of his stripes in Spock's eyes.

I saw that too and grinned like a maniac in the theatre.

I think Spock's line refers to "cheating" in general, not cheating timelines. As in cheating death, Kobayashi Maru, changing circumstances to achieve the desired outcome. "Corbomite Maneuver" comes to mind.

I took that line as refering to cheating in general too and when I re-watched the "Corbomite Maneuver" some days after, I immediately thought about that line!
By being Kirk's first officer (and friend), Spock Prime learnt to listen to his gut instinct a bit more instead of trusting the odds and pure logic.

 

[scottydog]

I like this thread.

Thank you for not saying "It's exciting!"

 

[Franklin]

There is one thing... spock prime taught kirk it's alright to cheat to win even if you have to defy the time line...

spock prime called kirk "old friend" many times.... at the transport back to the enterprise nuKirk told kirk "isnt that cheating" spock prime replied "a old friend taught me that" and they both knew he was talking about kirk prime.

so now... nuKirk thinks it's ok to win... even to cheat time.
1000 Yippie...

I groaned when I heard that line. Maybe Spock Prime meant Janeway. The sad thing is, it's a play to the Kirk stereotype by Orci and Kurtzman, who should know better. I defy anyone to show me a time Kirk literally cheated the timeline. In order, here are Kirk's trips back into time.
1. "The Naked Time": the crew was accidentally thrown a whole three days back into time.
2. "Tomorrow is Yesterday": accidental time travel. If anything, Kirk made sure the timeline was set straight and his ship returned to its proper time.
3. "The City on the Edge of Forever": With the aid of the Guardian, Kirk was trying to set the timeline back on its proper course, not cheat it.
4. "Assignment Earth": As observers, it became apparent to Kirk that he should not attempt to alter events.
5. "All Our Yesterdays": Kirk and the others were trying to save themselves, not change history.
6. "The Voyage Home": Go back in time and bring whales to the future. Nothing about the timeline itself was altered since Gillian was apparently supposed to disappear on the day she joined them.

That's it, folks. Six times. Two by accident. Once he was ordered to. Once he had to to set time straight. Once it was to save himself. Once it was to save the Earth in his time. Sorry. No cheating. Never. And only once was it really to change a timeline ("City"), and that was to put it on its proper course.

It's sad people think it's more than that. It's sadder that the writers played on that popular perception by giving Spock Prime such a crappy line.

I think Spock's line refers to "cheating" in general, not cheating timelines. As in cheating death, Kobayashi Maru, changing circumstances to achieve the desired outcome. "Corbomite Maneuver" comes to mind.

Yes. Good thought. I'd like to think of it that way. Spock Prime is "reprogramming" a real life no-win scenario so there is a chance to win. It is something he learned from (his) Kirk. Give yourself a chance to win.
It also shows the maturity of Spock Prime v. Spock. It was Spock who gave the "certain death" speech. Obviously, that fatalistic approach is not proper for command. That was the flaw in the simulation. It is Spock Prime who obviously no longer believes in the fallacy of the no-win scenario. Hence, "cheating."
The problem is, in context, I'm sure there are plenty of folks, especially those who don't know the "no-win" theme goes all the way back to TWOK, who take it more literally to mean "changing history." I like your interpretation ten times better. And, even if Orci and Kurtzman didn't mean it that way, they should adopt the interpretation.

DAMN! There WAS some depth to this movie!

 

[Minuialeth]

I like this thread.

Thank you for not saying "It's exciting!"

And now I've read this as if it was said by Scotty

 

[indranee]

Orci et al need to read this thread.

 

[General Shran]

The problem is, in context, I'm sure there are plenty of folks, especially those who don't know the "no-win" theme goes all the way back to TWOK, who take it more literally to mean "changing history." I like your interpretation ten times better. And, even if Orci and Kurtzman didn't mean it that way, they should adopt the interpretation.

Thanks. Personally, I thought Spock was simply responding to Kirk's accusation "that's cheating" as soon as I heard it. It never occurred to me that he might be referring to time travel cheats. However, it's pretty hard for me to put myself in a newcomer's shoes, so who knows what they might take from the exchange?

 

[Franklin]

The problem is, in context, I'm sure there are plenty of folks, especially those who don't know the "no-win" theme goes all the way back to TWOK, who take it more literally to mean "changing history." I like your interpretation ten times better. And, even if Orci and Kurtzman didn't mean it that way, they should adopt the interpretation.

Thanks. Personally, I thought Spock was simply responding to Kirk's accusation "that's cheating" as soon as I heard it. It never occurred to me that he might be referring to time travel cheats. However, it's pretty hard for me to put myself in a newcomer's shoes, so who knows what they might take from the exchange?

Well, I'm hardly a newcomer, but I didn't think of it the way you did. Not at all. But my main prejudice is I get so defensive when folks assume TOS and Kirk were all about time travel and changing things (the "time travel is over-done" folks, and all that). There's even an exasperated reference to Kirk by the "temporal police" in a DS9 episode. So I read the worst into Spock Prime's response to "changing history." I guess no prejudice is a good prejudice.

 

[Lt. Trull]

The temporal police will never do anything... why... because by the time the temporal police take office... this is their history... if they did something they'd change it... violating their own rules... the rule having someone from a different time change reality for a different time.... spock prime was exempt because now... nero and spock prime are part of the this reality.

I always hated quantum mechanics at the academy.

 

[rbnn]

There has been some debate on these boards about why Spock Prime was apparently living in a cave when a Starfleet outpost was so close by. Also, some have wondered if Nimoy's role in the movie was really necessary. That it didn't "feel" meaty enough. Did he really do much? After watching the movie again, I'm convinced of two things. First, Kirk saved his life. Second, Spock Prime did alter the future.

Spock Prime was emotionally crippled when Kirk came across him. Perhaps he was in such deep shock he didn't even consider saving himself. That's probably why he didn't venture to the Starfleet outpost. Spock Prime apologized to Kirk for there being some unavoidable "emotional transference" in a mind meld. Some. And, Kirk could barely deal with it. Spock Prime must've been a hopeless mess.

But Kirk's fortuitous arrival seemed to give him hope and got his mind working again. Kirk is here. If Kirk is here, there must be a chance. When he finds out Kirk is not in command of the Enterprise, that's the point at which he decides to take matters into his own hands.
Had he not convinced Kirk to take command, it's likely Kirk's Starfleet career would've ended ignominiously. Further, young Spock probably would've resigned from Starfleet, too. That's where Spock Prime "cheated." He didn't directly help them defeat Nero, he did nothing heroic himself, but he nudged events in a different direction. He knew he was giving Starfleet its best chance to win and giving his friend a chance to fulfill his destiny. Hence, he beams Kirk back on board the Enterprise. For all we know, saying Mr. Scott would've invented the formula anyway was merely a "deception."

This is an extremely interesting analysis.

It works thematically too. Young Kirk chose life over destruction at the last moment when he changed his mind about going over the cliff in the Corvette. Here, Kirk's fall changed Spock Prime's mind about letting everything fall apart.

If your analysis is correct, it raises the question of whether Spock Prime also felt guilt over allowing the Jellyfish's red matter to be captured without self-destructing; and whether this guilt was partly the cause of his anguish.

Spock Prime has faced numerous threats of universal destruction of the decades. Would merely the loss of Vulcan have been so unbearable to him that he could not function, had he not felt he was culpable in some way? And what culpability is there, other than the capture of the Jellyfish?

 

[Minuialeth]

Spock Prime has faced numerous threats of universal destruction of the decades. Would merely the loss of Vulcan have been so unbearable to him that he could not function, had he not felt he was culpable in some way? And what culpability is there, other than the capture of the Jellyfish?

Have you read the Countdown books? Before doing so, I had no idea of the guilt Spock Prime must be carrying when Kirk runs in the cave.
Spock did all he could to convince both the Romulans and the Vulcans to help to save Romulus but they were so distrustful of each others that they didn't do anything. Only mutual trust between the two races could have saved Romulus and ultimately, Vulcan.
The Red Matter was Spock's idea and I think that, in his eyes, he could have done more. More to convince both sides, more to realise his idea... In TOS, Spock was always quick to carry all the weight of some things on his shoulders and so often felt unwarranted guilt.

 

[rbnn]

There has been some debate on these boards about why Spock Prime was apparently living in a cave when a Starfleet outpost was so close by. Also, some have wondered if Nimoy's role in the movie was really necessary. That it didn't "feel" meaty enough. Did he really do much? After watching the movie again, I'm convinced of two things. First, Kirk saved his life. Second, Spock Prime did alter the future.

Spock Prime was emotionally crippled when Kirk came across him. Perhaps he was in such deep shock he didn't even consider saving himself. That's probably why he didn't venture to the Starfleet outpost. Spock Prime apologized to Kirk for there being some unavoidable "emotional transference" in a mind meld. Some. And, Kirk could barely deal with it. Spock Prime must've been a hopeless mess.

But Kirk's fortuitous arrival seemed to give him hope and got his mind working again. Kirk is here. If Kirk is here, there must be a chance. When he finds out Kirk is not in command of the Enterprise, that's the point at which he decides to take matters into his own hands.

I've thought about your theory some more and I'm now convinced you're correct.

It's the best explanation for a lot of different things that don't cohere otherwise: Spock Prime's being in a cave, the emotional transference effect, Spock Prime's kneeling on the ramp of the Jellyfish, Spock Prime's admitting he was emotionally compromised, and the entire thematic structure.

 

[Lt. Trull]

Yes spock prime was in a freekin cave... who's to say that nero didn't beam him to some part of the planet and he was traveling from where he was beamed to the starfleet outpost and found the cave as a shortterm shelter before proceeding...

 

[Jeri]

I've mentioned this a couple times; but it makes sense that both Kirk and Spock would have landed on Delta Vega on the same trajectory both the Narada and Enterprise took away from Vulcan -- and that they would be dropped within hiking distance of a Federation outpost. Nero didn't want Spock to die; he wanted him to live and suffer.

 

[rbnn]

Yes spock prime was in a freekin cave... who's to say that nero didn't beam him to some part of the planet and he was traveling from where he was beamed to the starfleet outpost and found the cave as a shortterm shelter before proceeding...

It's possible, but Franklin's theory is more plausible and more consistent with the tone of the film, because it explains at one fell swoop many more aspects of the plot and the characters, without requiring additional placements and trips and what not.

Remember as well the interview where the screenwriters explained Spock Prime only saw Vulcan through a telescope or viewfinder, which would likely have been in or near the cave and not at the other location required by your theory.