Kirk drift—misremembering a character…

[JonnyQuest037]

Are you suggesting that Janice Lester was the blond lab technician that Gary Mitchell stirred his way? Now it makes more sense that she was a Mitchell selection rather than a Kirk selection addressing the judge of character issue.

No, not at all. I honestly haven't nailed down exactly when in Kirk's Academy career Kirk was with Janice Lester yet, as there isn't any information to go on outside of this:

JANICE: I hoped I wouldn't see you again.
KIRK: I don't blame you.
JANICE: The year we were together at Starfleet is the only time in my life I was alive.
KIRK: I never stopped you from going on with your space work.
JANICE: Your world of starship captains doesn't admit women. It isn't fair.
KIRK: No, it isn't. And you punished and tortured me because of it.
JANICE: I loved you. We could've roamed among the stars.
KIRK: We'd have killed each other.
JANICE: It might have been better.

So all we know is that they were together for a year, they had a bad breakup, and it's one of the few past relationships that Kirk seems to regret.

I put Kirk's relationship with Ruth at around 2250-2252, as Kirk says to her simulacrum on the "Shore Leave" planet, "You haven't aged. It's been 15 years." So if I had to guess, I'd say Kirk was with Janice Lester sometime around 2253 or 2254 before he graduated the Academy.

In my mind Carol Marcus was the "little blonde lab technician" that Gary Mitchell aimed at Kirk. This happened in the autumn of 2257 when Lt. Kirk went to Starfleet Command School after the destruction of the Farragut and taught classes to underclassmen on the side. Kirk is with Carol for two years, and proposes to her on New Year's Eve of 2259. Carol breaks off the engagement in February of 2260, realizes she's pregnant shortly thereafter (after Kirk has shipped out for another deep space assignment), and gives birth to David in September of 2260. David is a child prodigy and has a doctorate by the time of TWOK in 2283. (Not a typo. I disagree with the Okuda Chronology's 2285 date for TWOK.) Kirk doesn't learn he has a son until sometime between TOS and TMP, or maybe even TMP and TWOK.

There's no mention of a Starfleet Command School at all in TOS or the TOS movies, but once I came up with the idea to move Kirk's relationship with Carol Marcus forward in time to after the Farragut disaster, I was amazed at how much better so many pieces of Kirk's biography fit. And it gives Kirk a much more realistic career progression than becoming a Lieutenant before he even graduates the Academy.

If you're interested, you can see more of my TOS era Chronology here, where I explain my reasoning even further.

 

[fireproof78]

Did I miss anyone?) and you start to get the "Kirk goes after anything that moves and is nominally female" rep.

I think people forget that reputations are generally an exaggerated thing.

 

[Tallguy]

Not a typo. I disagree with the Okuda Chronology's 2285 date for TWOK.

Hear hear!

I think people forget that reputations are generally an exaggerated thing.

Fine to say, but then we get Chris Pine not being able to finish a conversation if a woman walks by. We get Sam Kirk describing his brother as bending the rules "all the time". The "reputation" becomes the reality.

BTW, a reminder for everyone (well, really myself) that SNW season 2 is under spoiler-lock, or whatever we call it, right? I'm going to guess it will become pertinent.

 

[fireproof78]

Fine to say, but then we get Chris Pine not being able to finish a conversation if a woman walks by. We get Sam Kirk describing his brother as bending the rules "all the time". The "reputation" becomes the reality.

No, not really. Pine Kirk is designed by nature to be different from his Prime Counterpart. His whole life a deviation from what he could be. What it took to make him the man that he would become. Sam describing his brother that way doesn't make it a reality. My brother says I'm a terrible driver, awful at singing and constantly injuring myself.

Taking things as literal statements of gospel truth is basically treating Trek characters as not human.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Yeah, the Chris Pine Kirk was basically just the pop culture cliché of Captain Kirk (rule breaking, womanizing horndog, etc.), albeit with a revised backstory with a prematurely dead father to justify it.

 

[Tallguy]

No, not really. Pine Kirk is designed by nature to be different from his Prime Counterpart. His whole life a deviation from what he could be. What it took to make him the man that he would become. Sam describing his brother that way doesn't make it a reality. My brother says I'm a terrible driver, awful at singing and constantly injuring myself.

Taking things as literal statements of gospel truth is basically treating Trek characters as not human.

Are you saying that the writers and creatives on these shows and movies felt these examples to be at odds with what we "know" or out of character for Kirk? Were we meant to see Kelvin Kirk wake up in bed with two cat-tailed women and say "Wow! This isn't at all like the Prime Kirk that we know! Ho ho, what clever commentary on what might have been!"?

When Sam says Jim breaks the rules all the time was the intention for us to say "What an annoying older brother! He doesn't know anything about Jim!" or were we meant to nod knowingly because that's JUST was Jim Kirk is like?

 

[fireproof78]

Yeah, the Chris Pine Kirk was basically just the pop culture cliché of Captain Kirk (rule breaking, womanizing horndog, etc.), albeit with a revised backstory with a prematurely dead father to justify it.

Because it makes sense from the story they are telling. For Kirk, he needed that fatherly guidance and leadership to become who he was "destined" to be. You see the pain in his eyes when Spock Prime tells him that his Prime Counterpart knew his father. You see him wish for what might have been. There's more to it than just a caricature of Kirk, if people are willing to explore rather than go, "Haha, what a cliche pop culture Kirk."

Were we meant to see Kelvin Kirk wake up in bed with two cat-tailed women and say "Wow! This isn't at all like the Prime Kirk that we know! Ho ho, what clever commentary on what might have been!"?

I think we're meant to take him as being a bit directionless and reckless, despite his current career. No, I don't think it's "clever commentary" but actually exploring a character from a different angle.

When Sam says Jim breaks the rules all the time was the intention for us to say "What an annoying older brother! He doesn't know anything about Jim!" or were we meant to nod knowingly because that's JUST was Jim Kirk is like?

Just being an annoying older brother. That's it. Nothing more, and nothing less.

 

[ChrisPiiike]

“Kirk drift.” A phrase coined by the author of this article to describe how misremembering of an original source work can deliberately or unwittingly change the popular perception of said original work. In this article the character of Captain James T. Kirk is used as the example of how the popular perceptions of a well known character are near totally divorced from how the character was originally portrayed.

Warning: it’s a long read and sometimes long-winded, but I think the essential point is quite valid.

http://strangehorizons.com/non-fict...pLmrURefsGSjp5SoQLO_-fi4shpCUnreU2ZEF26C2wyX0

Even before the TOS films Kirk was already being satirized and caricatured in the media by comedians and detractors. From TWOK onward it really took hold as the Kirk in those films drifted from the Kirk of TOS. It was even referenced in later Trek productions such as DS9 and VOY with Sisko saying Kirk was known a “ladies man“ and Janeway referring to Kirk as a cowboy. Even Picard in TNG alluded to ”cowboy diplomacy” that is a thinly veiled reference to Kirk.

As the article asserts it really landed in JJtrek as it painted Kirk (and the other characters) as how mainstream society perceived them rather than how they were actually portrayed in TOS.

Hey there,

It's interesting to see how the portrayal of Kirk has evolved over time and how external influences like comedians, detractors, and subsequent Star Trek productions have contributed to this phenomenon.
From what you've mentioned, it seems that even before the TOS films, Kirk was subject to satire and caricature in the media. As the films progressed, there was a noticeable shift in the portrayal of Kirk, leading to a departure from his original characterization in the original series (TOS). This "drift" was even acknowledged in later Trek productions, such as Deep Space Nine (DS9) and Voyager (VOY), where references were made to Kirk being a "ladies man" and a "cowboy."

According to the article, the "Kirk drift" became more pronounced in the J.J. Abrams' Star Trek reboot films, where the characters were depicted based on mainstream society's perception rather than their original portrayals in TOS.

 

[Henoch]

In my mind Carol Marcus was the "little blonde lab technician" that Gary Mitchell aimed at Kirk. This happened in the autumn of 2257 when Lt. Kirk went to Starfleet Command School after the destruction of the Farragut and taught classes to underclassmen on the side. Kirk is with Carol for two years, and proposes to her on New Year's Eve of 2259. Carol breaks off the engagement in February of 2260, realizes she's pregnant shortly thereafter (after Kirk has shipped out for another deep space assignment), and gives birth to David in September of 2260. David is a child prodigy and has a doctorate by the time of TWOK in 2283. (Not a typo. I disagree with the Okuda Chronology's 2285 date for TWOK.) Kirk doesn't learn he has a son until sometime between TOS and TMP, or maybe even TMP and TWOK.

In a knee jerk reaction, I lost the timeline about Mitchell's "little blonde lab technician" comment; yes, it happened later, after the Farragut incident though I put their romance a little shorter; started in 2257 with David born in 2258 making him almost 25 in the TWOK.

Also, I agree on the TWOK 2283 date. Both Kirk and Khan say 15 years ago, so, that's gives 2268 for Space Seed. I also have TOS Season One starting in Sept 2266 (Stardate 1329.1), and spanning two years (mostly because of the passage of almost two thousand Stardates) which puts Space Seed in July 2268 (Stardate 3141.9). It fits! Also, the Stardate of TWOK is 8141.6, or almost exactly 5000 Stardates; add in a dropped 10,000 Stardates to keep the four digit format, and you get 15,000 Stardates or 15 years to the day. It fits, too.

As for Janice Lester, I have their one year romance more recently starting in 2264 then breaking up right before if not due to Kirk getting his promotion to Captain and being assigned the Enterprise. I fits better with Janice's "your world of starship captains...". She says, "Starfleet" and not Starfleet Academy. Perhaps Kirk had a ground posting job somewhere in Starfleet for the one year before getting the Enterprise in 2265. At least it fits. YMMV .

 

[Warped9]

I personally reject the whole Carol and David Marcus thing as more drift to paint Kirk as a careless womanizer.

It certainly isn’t in Kirk’s TOS bio whereas McCoy’s daughter is in his character bio and yet it’s never mentioned, although it was initially going to be in “The Way To Eden” until they dropped the idea.

What is in Kirk’s TOS character bio is he commanded another ship before the Enterprise, and it’s backed up by Dehner’s reference to his first command in WNMHGB. Makes sense because you wouldn’t give command of one of your best ships to an inexperienced neophyte.

 

[Henoch]

Dehner’s reference to his first command in WNMHGB.

Doesn't say he was of captain rank...could be he commanded a smaller ship as a Lt. Cmd. rank. Kirk probably wrecked it in a confrontation with the Klingons, hence his ground assignment waiting his next ship assignment. Again, Kirk drift that he wrecks his ships. Good thing the Enterprise opened up.

 

[Tallguy]

I personally reject the while Carol and David Marcus thing as more drift to paint Kirk as a careless womanizer.

It certainly isn’t in Kirk’s TOS bio whereas McCoy’s daughter is in his character bio and yet it’s never mentioned, although it was initially going to be in “The Way To Eden” until they dropped the idea.

What is in Kirk’s TOS character bio is he commanded another ship before the Enterprise, and it’s backed up by Dehner’s reference to his first command in WNMHGB. Makes sense because you wouldn’t give command of one of your best ships to an inexperienced neophyte.

Kirk's bio (I assume we're going by The Making of Star Trek?) includes Ruth, Shaw, and Wallace. By coincidence this was written at the end of the second season. If we were to read a similar bio from the end of season one it wouldn't have included Wallace. If we were to read from the start of season one it wouldn't have included Ruth or Shaw either.

Curious that it doesn't include Edith Keeler.

Doesn't say he was of captain rank...could be he commanded a smaller ship as a Lt. Cmd. rank. Kirk probably wrecked it in a confrontation with the Klingons, hence his ground assignment waiting his next ship assignment. Again, Kirk drift that he wrecks his ships. Good thing the Enterprise opened up.

Are... Any of those things referenced anywhere? Where do we get "Kirk wrecks ships?" Is that a thing? Is there a character point that he was grounded at some point? Where do we get that he lost a ship in a confrontation with the Klingons?

I mean, we don't have any evidence that any of that DIDN'T happen, I suppose. But where did this come from?

 

[Henoch]

But where did this come from?

My imagination (Kirk's rank progression and when was Lester was never covered on-screen, so, it's fair game to make up). SNW has Kirk as a Lt. in ~2259. He shouldn't achieve Captain rank in only a few years. He should progress to Lt. Cmd, then Commander. This gives six years to make Captain at age 31 in 2265 so he can be age 34 in 2268.

I never said he destroyed his ship, only wrecked it. My Kirk drift is he is wrecks his ships. Evidence of this Kirk drift starts in TOS:WNMHGB (wrecked it), then drifted in TWOK (wrecked it), TSFS (destroyed it), TVH (wrecked/sank it), TUC (wrecked it), ST:2009 (wrecked it), ST:ID (wrecked it), ST:Beyond (destroyed it). Am I missing any?

<edit. SNW alt timeline, Destroyed it.>

 

[Warped9]

In the real world if you wreck a ship they’re going to be very leery of giving you another command particularly a major vessel.

 

[fireproof78]

That Kirk gets a command after the events of TSFS still blows my mind.

 

[Mres_was_framed!]

In my mind Carol Marcus was the "little blonde lab technician" that Gary Mitchell aimed at Kirk. This happened in the autumn of 2257 when Lt. Kirk went to Starfleet Command School after the destruction of the Farragut and taught classes to underclassmen on the side. Kirk is with Carol for two years, and proposes to her on New Year's Eve of 2259. Carol breaks off the engagement in February of 2260, realizes she's pregnant shortly thereafter (after Kirk has shipped out for another deep space assignment), and gives birth to David in September of 2260. David is a child prodigy and has a doctorate by the time of TWOK in 2283. (Not a typo. I disagree with the Okuda Chronology's 2285 date for TWOK.) Kirk doesn't learn he has a son until sometime between TOS and TMP, or maybe even TMP and TWOK.

I prefer 2281 for ST:II, as it matches the stardate 8128 for Spock's death, (movie stardates having moved the decimal places compared to TOS stardates ) although with Space Seed having a stardate that starts with 3, I am assuming that it took place in 2267 with Kirk rounding a bit.

How did you decide on winter/fall timing and things like New Year's Even for a proposal?

I do like the idea that Kirk and Carol get together, or at least get back together after the loss of the Farragut. It does make the timing a bit smoother and helps explain how Kirk might be an instructor when some other episodes suggest he is serving on a ship.

Were we meant to see Kelvin Kirk wake up in bed with two cat-tailed women and say "Wow! This isn't at all like the Prime Kirk that we know! Ho ho, what clever commentary on what might have been!"?

I do not want leave the impression that would dignify that scene in the 12th movie with a reply, but TOS Kirk thrives on the attention and focus of one woman at a time, which is why he seems to leave some woman behind, thinking of him, on planet after planet. TOS Kirk would never be with two women at the same time. I really felt that scene damaged the whole movie by doubling down on the new version of Kirk as having no focus when the prior move showed him find that focus.

So yes, my reaction to the scene was that this was not like the Kirk we know at all.

He should progress to Lt. Cmd, then Commander. This gives six years to make Captain at age 31 in 2265 so he can be age 34 in 2268.

Was not the Farragut supposed to have been lost in 2257, which would not fit with the new shows?

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Space is so full of dangerous unknowns that you can't possibly prepare for or anticipate all danger. If you lose a ship for a dumb reason that you absolutely should have been able to handle, then they'd think twice about giving you another command.

Lose 10 different ships and that's suspicious/telling.

 

[fireproof78]

I really felt that scene damaged the whole movie by doubling down on the new version of Kirk as having no focus when the prior move showed him find that focus.

So yes, my reaction to the scene was that this was not like the Kirk we know at all.

So he's just supposed to jump in to that new focus with no tendency towards the old behaviors?

 

[blssdwlf]

Doesn't say he was of captain rank...could be he commanded a smaller ship as a Lt. Cmd. rank. Kirk probably wrecked it in a confrontation with the Klingons, hence his ground assignment waiting his next ship assignment. Again, Kirk drift that he wrecks his ships. Good thing the Enterprise opened up.

That's a big stretch, IMHO. Starfleet isn't going to reward Kirk with a new ship, especially a bigger, better one like the Enterprise after wrecking his first command unless he saved Earth or Starfleet or something big. Heck, even if you look at TVH, after saving Earth he only gets an equivalent ship as a reward. As far as I can tell from what is shown in the series TOS Kirk received command of the Enterprise by earning the posting through being a good officer.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

That Kirk gets a command after the events of TSFS still blows my mind.

Space Seed and The Way to Eden would also cost a real captain his career, in the Navy at least. But it's entertainment.