I agree, with one exception, I like arguments amongst fans
Khan or no Khan?
- Thread starter Temis the Vorta
- Start date
Neither them know how to write, so they just have to copy old ideas.
First we had "SOME BALD GUY ESCAPES FROM PRISON AND HAS A REALLY AWESOME SHIP AND WANTS TO GET REVENGE ON SOME GUY FOR NO REASON AND THERE'S SOME EXPLOSIONS AND NOTHING MAKES SENSE", and now we're going to get "SOME GENETICALLY ENGINEERED SUPERHUMAN GUY WITH A GIGANTIC CHEST DOES SOME STUFF". Hey wait a minute, haven't I seen those movies before?
First we had "SOME BALD GUY ESCAPES FROM PRISON AND HAS A REALLY AWESOME SHIP AND WANTS TO GET REVENGE ON SOME GUY FOR NO REASON AND THERE'S SOME EXPLOSIONS AND NOTHING MAKES SENSE", and now we're going to get "SOME GENETICALLY ENGINEERED SUPERHUMAN GUY WITH A GIGANTIC CHEST DOES SOME STUFF". Hey wait a minute, haven't I seen those movies before?
I look at it this way. Who was the best Trek villain? Which of the feature films was the best? The answers to both decide my vote; I want to see a take on Khan.
Antonio Banderas, Naveen Andrews, either would be good. Though I think Antonio would be a bit more name-worthy.
Antonio Banderas, Naveen Andrews, either would be good. Though I think Antonio would be a bit more name-worthy.
Nero had a reason! It was just a kind of stupid, generic reason that had zipola to do with him being a Romulan, that's all. They could made him an alien from Planet X and blown up Planet X and the story would have been exactly the same. It's mindless writing to just use "Romulan" as a label to slap on a character just because "Romulan" is a word associated with a thing called "Star Trek."
If they "copy and pasted", it would be in keeping within Star Trek tradition of rehashing either other Trek stories or "borrowing" from other source material and simply applying a Star Trek label to it. Been going on since TOS and even GR took a small screen story and enlarged it for the big screen the first time Star Trek ever became a movie.
Which leads me to: If Star Trek and its characters have truly reached "mythological proportions" at some point after we are long go from this forum, or maybe before their stories will be retold in a new light and the fable of how James T Kirk bested that superman Khan will be rethought and redone. If it happens thats a strength not a weakness.
Its actually very likely to happen with Khan as he as much as Kirk and Co have entered into popular culture, and comes to mind as James Kirk's arch-rival not unlike how the Joker is to Batman or Lex Luthor is to Superman. Just look at how Paramount has up ticked Khan tie in merchandise (that should be a clue btw as to whats coming.)
There's no such thing as a "definitive" piece of fiction or depiction of a character. Stories get retold and retold and it only happens with those things that have archived archetypal status. The first movie proved that the archetypes of Kirk and Co can transcend the actors who first portrayed them there's no reason the same is not true about Kirk's arch foe Khan.
TPTB are not going to let the inevitable "rematch" between nuKirk and nuKhan take place in ancillary material or reduce it down to a mere bit of background trivia as a one liner zing in the next film. That would be a wasted bit of dramatic material for starters and despite these very unscientific polls is not what the fan base really wants.
The bad guys racial backgrounds are always incidental to their always human motives. Since when did it ever matter? What you just said applies to all of Trek over and over. The makeup the bad guy is wearing is secondary to how he trips up Kirk - Orci and Kurtzmen aren't the first Trek writers to do this. Another thing that goes all the way back to the original series. Those half-white half-black guys could have been pockadotted and the same story could have been told. Star Trek aliens are never "alien".
Yeah, the first one is a Bond or Superman film. And the second one is Blade Runner.
Exactly. If it's good enough for Gene Roddenberry, then it's good enough for Orci and Kurtzman, or are you forgetting about the whole "Changling" vs. "V'ger" or "Naked Time"/"Naked Now" thing, Gekothan?
Seriously, dude, since we don't have any details on what the story will be, or if *any* of these wild fan speculations have any grain of truth whatsoever, your hyperbole is a little over the top. . .
~FS
That sinks it. It's Khan for sure.
Chekov better invest in some good earplugs.And remember everyone, this won't be Wrath of Khan. They're starting from the get-go, with the discovery of Botany Bay. Or maybe even that has changed; Khan and crew might have been discovered earlier by who knows who, and by now have established a base of operations on some far-flung world.
Khan may have had many years to plot his attack on those stuck-up mundanes of Earth who refuse to acknowledge his inherent superiority. Who knows, he might even have allied with the Klingons (who have their own squirrely history with genetic augmentation - wonder how that might play out with them.)
The story could be completely different this time around. Old Spock can certainly warn Starfleet not to trust that Khan guy, when they finally become aware of his existence, but there's no telling whether that warning will be of any use.
I've always found the whole Augments story to be fascinating and underdeveloped. The Federation is so wonderfully open-minded and blase about everything, but they go all paranoid and nutty about this one thing, genetic engineering. That suggests a truly deep-seated trauma, at least for the humans in the Federation, that is an interesting deviation from their overall rationality.
I'd like to see at least a brief backstory sequence delving into the historical "Eugenics War" (aka WWIII, seems pretty likely now that they have to be merged.)
In the age of political correctness, they aren't going to dare to give the role to a white guy. Someone of actual real-life Indian descent like Andrews is far more likely. I'd love either him or Sendhil Ramamurthy, who might not be a good enough actor to play a bad-ass, but day-aaam, he certainly looks like a human who's been engineered to be like unto a GOD!
Khan's motivations were racial. If he had been a mere un-augmented human, he wouldn't have an overweening sense of superiority and would not have attempted to finish the job he started way back when, to dominate the inferior non-augments of Earth.
Star Trek is full of aliens with motives that spring from some inherent quality of the race - Klingons, Vulcans, Ferengi, Cardassian, Dominion, Borg. But the poor Rommies can't play that game because nobody's ever given them the proper definition. That's just not right (and not as much fun).
The key characteristic of their species was not how the makeup was applied, but that they defined their racial differences according to something that, to humans, was so trivial that it wasn't even immediately apparent (and therefore implied that human perceptions of race were equally absurd). They would have had the same definition if they were polka-dotted (maybe the size of the dots was the difference?) and would have been racially motivated just the same.
Is the new tactic to blame the writers for things that have neither been confirmed or denied and are also pure speculation by the fans only?
So Harve Bennett doesn't know how to write?
I'm going to make up some stuff and then get mad imagining that someone is actually going to do it!!! I luuuuuuuv the internet!
Yknow, I used to be opposed to the Khan idea - same reason as everyone else, "why don't they take advantage of the clear playing field they created to do something new?" - but the more I think about it, the more I'm starting to like it. At the very least, it's no worse than anything else they might dream up.
The up tick in Khan related items was my first clue that Khan is some manner is going to be involved in the next film.
I always hated that TNG suddenly created another final world conflict - Space Seed made it fairly clear that The Eugenics Wars was World War III so I would be happy with them merging the two once again.
And yes, open warfare not this covert behind the scenes stuff. Khan and his compatriots just do not have the kind of egos that would allow them to be behind the scenes players.
Now I understand why Greg Cox wrote his Eugenics Wars books the way he did but it was sometimes jarring at how it was mashed into the background of "real world history". Star Trek is not our world, its a fictional playground allowed to diverge from our own at anytime.
"Yknow, I used to be opposed to the Khan idea - same reason as everyone else, "why don't they take advantage of the clear playing field they created to do something new?" - but the more I think about it, the more I'm starting to like it. At the very least, it's no worse than anything else they might dream up."
Part of the elegance of an alternate reality is taking a fresh look at old things. That's why we like the Mirror Universe so much. IT would be far less fun if they went into a parallel world and didn't give us a new take on something we think we know very well.
The fact they cited "The Dark Knight" as the direction they wanted to take things should also be another clue as to where this is going to end up. I don't think they were referring to tone, Nolan's Batman and the last Trek film couldn't be more different in tone, this reference is about delving into the Trek mythology in much the same way using the Joker was in "The Dark Knight". I'm sure in another few years we'll see another version of the Joker as well.
I always hated that TNG suddenly created another final world conflict - Space Seed made it fairly clear that The Eugenics Wars was World War III so I would be happy with them merging the two once again.
And yes, open warfare not this covert behind the scenes stuff. Khan and his compatriots just do not have the kind of egos that would allow them to be behind the scenes players.
Now I understand why Greg Cox wrote his Eugenics Wars books the way he did but it was sometimes jarring at how it was mashed into the background of "real world history". Star Trek is not our world, its a fictional playground allowed to diverge from our own at anytime.
"Yknow, I used to be opposed to the Khan idea - same reason as everyone else, "why don't they take advantage of the clear playing field they created to do something new?" - but the more I think about it, the more I'm starting to like it. At the very least, it's no worse than anything else they might dream up."
Part of the elegance of an alternate reality is taking a fresh look at old things. That's why we like the Mirror Universe so much. IT would be far less fun if they went into a parallel world and didn't give us a new take on something we think we know very well.
The fact they cited "The Dark Knight" as the direction they wanted to take things should also be another clue as to where this is going to end up. I don't think they were referring to tone, Nolan's Batman and the last Trek film couldn't be more different in tone, this reference is about delving into the Trek mythology in much the same way using the Joker was in "The Dark Knight". I'm sure in another few years we'll see another version of the Joker as well.
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Absolutely. I figure it was total armegeddon.
They have a story they like, but the question Khan or not is still open? Yeah right.
Twenty-eight... looks like someone made a typo.
Really don't think they do Khan this time, they already have an audience eager to see the next film. If the next film doesn't perform up to expectations then you'll see Khan in the third film... or another re-boot.
Huh? They have an audience eager to see any Star Trek movie. Why not trot out Khan? Next time after that, it can be Klingons. Maybe they'll bump up the Borg in the timeline. (Wow, if there's any topic more contentious than Bring Back Khan, it's Bring Back the Borg. Maybe I should stop now. )
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Huh? They have an audience eager to see any Star Trek movie. Why not trot out Khan? Next time after that, it can be Klingons. Maybe they'll bump up the Borg in the timeline. (Wow, if there's any topic more contentious than Bring Back Khan, it's Bring Back the Borg. Maybe I should stop now.
If they really want to turn these movies into superhero movies, they can bring in Khan in the second movie, have Kirk beat him. Then in the third movie Kirk can teamup with Khan to take on an every bigger threat like V'Ger.
No Khan....
Come up with an original villian...
Even Nero had some 'Khan-isms':
-He put a parasite into Captain Pike; a parasite that would tell Nero everything he wanted to know.
-Nero wanted to get back Spock (not Kirk, however) for the death of his wife.
-Nero had Ayel, Khan had Joachim...(I know I'm probably not spelling it right).
We now have a universe where anything can happen...let's see Kirk, Spock, and Mc--er, Uhura....meet some other baddies...
Come up with an original villian...
Even Nero had some 'Khan-isms':
-He put a parasite into Captain Pike; a parasite that would tell Nero everything he wanted to know.
-Nero wanted to get back Spock (not Kirk, however) for the death of his wife.
-Nero had Ayel, Khan had Joachim...(I know I'm probably not spelling it right).
We now have a universe where anything can happen...let's see Kirk, Spock, and Mc--er, Uhura....meet some other baddies...
No way. Young minds fresh ideas. Be tolerant. Or something to that effect. No WAY would i go to see Kahn movie. Its not necessary and it wouldnt work. On paper TWOK seems pretty weak, so doing it again i can only see bad things.
This questions like all red uniforms or no all red uniforms?
Refitted Enterprise or jakced up (current) enterprise...
Everythings changed.
What made Star trek boring? It ran out of original ideas. No more rehashes like Star trek voyager lol. Thank u!
This questions like all red uniforms or no all red uniforms?
Refitted Enterprise or jakced up (current) enterprise...
Everythings changed.
What made Star trek boring? It ran out of original ideas. No more rehashes like Star trek voyager lol. Thank u!
yeah do not want..
really i think what can be done with khan already has been done.
the joker already had a pretty rich and deep mythos from the comics.
and khan in the end just didnt stack up well against kirk.
kirk took him down in hand to hand combat .. so much for superman.
kirk was clearly outwitted him during wrath well after the first conflict that was.
either do something new or bring in a character like kor who was supposed to have been kirk's ongoing nemesis.
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