Kelvin Timeline official Encyclopedia entry

[Christopher]

And again, a lot of it comes down to 1960s TV production techniques vs. modern TV production.

Yes. It would've been interesting if, instead of exactly copying the original sets (aside from subtle upgrades like putting actual video screens in the bridge wall monitors instead of wrinkly astronomical art), they'd upgraded the details of the technology while keeping the overall aesthetic, thus offering a more modern approximation of the futuristic look the '60s artists were aspiring to create.

But I guess "Relics" and "Trials and Tribble-ations" had to copy the sets exactly because they were reusing stock TOS footage. (In "Relics," they only had the budget to build one station and the turbolift alcove and rent a fan reconstruction of the captain's chair and helm console, so the wide shot of the whole bridge was stock from "This Side of Paradise.") So they didn't have the option to upgrade the sets, and that pretty much locked in the idea that 2260s Starfleet technology actually did look that way in-universe. (Just as "Trials" locked in the idea that 2260s Klingons had no ridges, whereas before then, the shows had always skirted the question.)

 

[WarpFactorZ]

Exactly. No one making a future film or TV show is going to look at the Encyclopedia entry and go "Oops, I guess we can do that".

Word. This is about as official as any of Roddenberry's proclamations. We all know the rule: it is only canon if it's mentioned on screen (and then of course can be freely contradicted later on).

 

[section31agent]

hmm I was surprised the Okuda's actually took Pegg's comments for their encyclopedia entry. It's pretty obvious that was not the intention from the 09 movie. ""Nero's very presence has altered the flow of history, beginning with the attack on the USS Kelvin, culminating in the events of today,"

Pegg only made those comments in his defense when Takei gave him shit for turning Sulu gay when Takei portrayed him as straight. If he didn't make Sulu gay, there would be no reason for him to make up this "ripples in time" shit to defend himself.

Kind of a waste for him to make so much effort to tie in ENT with NX class ships, MACOs, Xindi/Romulan wars and then turn around and say, well it actually has nothing to do with prime universe at all. Just so he can make Sulu gay.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

hmm I was surprised the Okuda's actually took Pegg's comments for their encyclopedia entry. It's pretty obvious that was not the intention from the 09 movie. ""Nero's very presence has altered the flow of history, beginning with the attack on the USS Kelvin, culminating in the events of today,"

The mistake you are making here is assuming that because the alteration begins with the attack on the Kelvin that only events after that point can be affected by it. It is a bad and baseless assumption. What the attack itself shows us first and foremostly is that the future can affect the past. Change the future, and the past may also be changed as result.

It's also an odd assumption that Pegg made up such an idea by himself. Indeed, such possibilities have been discussed by many over the years (and not only with respect to Star Trek) since long before Pegg made his recent comments.

 

[Skywalker]

To be fair, there's no way Spock or anyone else on the Enterprise could know that the changes reverberated backwards through time, too. From their perspective, that was how things had always transpired.

 

[Christopher]

hmm I was surprised the Okuda's actually took Pegg's comments for their encyclopedia entry.

Other way around. If the Encyclopedia's coming out now, that means the text was approved months ago. Pegg's comments were only weeks ago. Pegg must have gotten an advance look at the new edition and gotten the idea from the Okudas.

 

[section31agent]

The mistake you are making here is assuming that because the alteration begins with the attack on the Kelvin that only events after that point can be affected by it. It is a bad and baseless assumption. What the attack itself shows us first and foremostly is that the future can affect the past. Change the future, and the past may also be changed as result.

It's also an odd assumption that Pegg made up such an idea by himself. Indeed, such possibilities have been discussed by many over the years (and not only with respect to Star Trek) since long before Pegg made his recent comments.

I don't remember anyone who actually works on the movie mention this ripples of time theory until Pegg brought it up. Up until now it was generally believed that anything that happened prior to the Kelvin attack was the same in both universes. That was the position of memory alpha, Star Trek Online. I'm not saying that memory alpha has to be right. If they want to say they're completely separate universes from the big bang, that's fine. I'm just saying it sounds like that theory came out of nowhere AFTER he got called out by Takei. But if you can show me that some other producer/writer mentioned this idea before Pegg, then maybe I'm wrong.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

Up until now it was generally believed that anything that happened prior to the Kelvin attack was the same in both universes.

The people who believe(d) that didn't fully think through the potential implications of what is actually shown and said in the movie. Nero, without even deliberately trying, is thrown by an event in 2387 back in time to 2233. He then destroys USS Kelvin, "altering the flow of history" and "thereby creating an entire new chain of incidents that cannot be anticipated." We are shown and told that an event in the future can alter the past, and that this can result in a different future. What is to stop other events in this resultant future from in turn altering anything further back than Nero's initial incursion? Nothing!

Someone from 2275 of this future could be thrown as far back in time as the Big Bang and by their very presence alter the initial conditions under which the universe is formed, with the resulting butterfly effect causing all manner of changes from then to the end of everything. Or to use an example more grounded in canon, any or all of the record-breaking 17 temporal violations that Kirk Prime committed during the course of his life according to "Trials and Tribble-ations" (DS9) could happen under different circumstances and have different results, if they happen at all. Indeed, we can already say that the ones shown in TOS and TVH cannot happen under exactly the same initial circumstances, since he's already out flying around on a different Enterprise-A! Kirk is merely one individual, and even by just altering the course of his life alone, Nero's attack on the Kelvin could have resulted in events prior to 2233 being altered. Now, consider the infinite other variables that are in play...and all bets are off as to what is or isn't the same, beyond what gets specified to be in subsequent films.

 

[Christopher]

But if you can show me that some other producer/writer mentioned this idea before Pegg, then maybe I'm wrong.

The very first post in this thread showed you that. Like I said, the text from the revised Encyclopedia must have been written quite some time ago. The project was first announced a year ago yesterday, which means it was already in the works before then. It takes a long time to get a book from draft to publication. My novel manuscripts are typically due maybe 9-10 months before publication. For a book as massive as the STE, the time needed for editing and revisions and preparations might easily be more than a year. So it's safe to say that the entry shown in the first post was written sometime in 2015. Pegg probably got an advance look at the text of the STE, and he got the name "Kelvin Timeline" and this new interpretation of how it works from it.

 

[The Wormhole]

I don't remember anyone who actually works on the movie mention this ripples of time theory until Pegg brought it up. Up until now it was generally believed that anything that happened prior to the Kelvin attack was the same in both universes. That was the position of memory alpha, Star Trek Online.

IDW seems to have operated under the belief for years that the Kelvin Timeline was different even before Nero's arrival, based on all the differences that have popped up in the comics. There's even a whole other Enterprise before the 1701 that could very well have existed prior to 2233.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I think Pegg made the statement to free them from continuity complaints. As a nerd, he should have known better.

 

[section31agent]

Pegg probably got an advance look at the text of the STE, and he got the name "Kelvin Timeline" and this new interpretation of how it works from it.

Not sure I believe this. Pegg said he was using memory alpha and watching old Star Trek episodes in his research. If the Okudas went out of their way to give him an early look at their publication, you would think he'd mention that too and say thanks.

But anyway it's really the fact that Pegg made those statements only after he got called out by Takei that looks sketchy. Maybe he really did intend for the alternate reality to be a completely different universe all along, I don't know for sure. But the Constable Odo in me thinks it's more likely he kinda knows he fucked up and rather than admit it to Takei, he just made up this ripples of time shit to free himself from any continuity complaints just like Nerys Myk said

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

The point is really not when or where or why Pegg took up the idea. The point is it's not a new idea that came out of the blue. People here, there, and everywhere have been speculating that things could have been different before 2233 in these films' universe since the first one came out in 2009.

 

[Christopher]

Not sure I believe this. Pegg said he was using memory alpha and watching old Star Trek episodes in his research. If the Okudas went out of their way to give him an early look at their publication, you would think he'd mention that too and say thanks.

No, I wouldn't think that, because I work in the industry and I know that we often have to keep things confidential or private. The public is not entitled to hear every last detail of our work as soon as it happens.

But anyway it's really the fact that Pegg made those statements only after he got called out by Takei that looks sketchy.

Only if you have an agenda that makes you want to find something "sketchy" in something so innocuous.

Maybe he really did intend for the alternate reality to be a completely different universe all along, I don't know for sure. But the Constable Odo in me thinks it's more likely he kinda knows he fucked up and rather than admit it to Takei, he just made up this ripples of time shit to free himself from any continuity complaints just like Nerys Myk said

I have already pointed out twice that that is completely impossible. The very first post in this thread showed a photo of the Encyclopedia entry expressing that theory. I have explained twice that the entry must have been written months before Pegg's statement, perhaps even more than a year before his statement. It is a logistical impossibility for that entry to have been written, edited, approved, typeset, and printed in the few weeks since Pegg gave that interview. Therefore, we know for an absolute, undeniable fact that the Okudas came up with the theory before Pegg did. And Pegg's explanation in the interview is too similar to the Okudas' to be coincidental. The only rational interpretation that is possible is that Pegg talked to the Okudas and they told him about it.

So it's quite absurd to compare yourself to Odo. Odo actually knows how to make deductions from the evidence. You are willfully ignoring conclusive evidence because it doesn't fit your bizarre conspiracy theory.

 

[The Wormhole]

Not sure I believe this. Pegg said he was using memory alpha and watching old Star Trek episodes in his research. If the Okudas went out of their way to give him an early look at their publication, you would think he'd mention that too and say thanks.

But anyway it's really the fact that Pegg made those statements only after he got called out by Takei that looks sketchy. Maybe he really did intend for the alternate reality to be a completely different universe all along, I don't know for sure. But the Constable Odo in me thinks it's more likely he kinda knows he fucked up and rather than admit it to Takei, he just made up this ripples of time shit to free himself from any continuity complaints just like Nerys Myk said

The fact of the matter remains that Encyclopedia entry had to have been written months ago, in other words before Pegg made his comment. The most I'm willing to concede on the matter is that Pegg might have made it not knowing there was an official Encyclopedia being written that would establish this anyway.

 

[Mudd]

The time frame of Discovery has not been announced yet. Fans have just jumped to the conclusion that it's pre-TOS based on the erroneous assumption that registry numbers increase chronologically

Yeah.

It's pre-TOS.

But then, one would reasonably expect that from Fuller suggesting that the ship's registry number was a clue to the era.

 

[section31agent]

So it's quite absurd to compare yourself to Odo. Odo actually knows how to make deductions from the evidence. You are willfully ignoring conclusive evidence because it doesn't fit your bizarre conspiracy theory.

No need to be a fucking douche just cuz I don't take all the shit you say as "conclusive evidence" right off the bat. I never said I'm Odo or that I'm some expert detective. I'm just saying the suspicious side of me thinks its more likely Pegg took this position only because Takei called him out and he wanted to cover his ass. I don't think he really intended to have separated universes from the beginning. And that's just my theory, I never said I can read Pegg's mind. Or that I absolutely must be right.

I know the book as a whole is written months or years in advance but you're telling me that it is completely impossible for the Okudas to make any kind of last minute changes two or three months prior to the release of their publications? Even a small little entry like that? If you tell me yes, cuz you're the fucking expert writer here then ok fine I can accept that, no problem. For someone that doesn't work in the publishing field, I wouldn't know that. I would've guessed you can still make some limited changes here and there even if the main part of the book is written months ago.

 

[M'Sharak]

So it's quite absurd to compare yourself to Odo. Odo actually knows how to make deductions from the evidence. You are willfully ignoring conclusive evidence because it doesn't fit your bizarre conspiracy theory.

No need to be a fucking douche just cuz I don't take all the shit you say as "conclusive evidence" right off the bat.

One of these posts is being critical of the content of the post to which it is a reply. The other is attacking the person for being critical of said content.

The first is acceptable; the second is not.

Tear apart the substance of what someone says, if you want, but never attack the person for saying it.

 

[Destructor]

I didn't take Pegg's comment literally- I don't analyze them from a sci-fi perspective. I thought he was saying, in this crazy multiverse we all live in, we can be gay or straight and maybe in one timeline there's a gay version or us and in another there's a straight version of us. I wouldn't take that fairly abstract statement as gospel that the changes we see in the Kelvin timeline aren't all post-Nerada.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Now we know the setting of Discovery (around 2255 Prime), I'd say it's definitely future-proofing Trek against inevitable conflicting details which couldn't be explained away with a 2233 divergence point. Many headaches are saved.