Keeping Tasha

[Lynx]

This shows a flagrant disregard for the series, in that after S2 it undergoes a major premise change and S4 is perhaps the most true to the higher ideals of the franchise series of episodes I've seen in a long time. But by all means, condemn an entire series based on 4 episodes.



Please elaborate on this, since if anything my understanding is that "woke" attitudes advocate for the opposite of oppression.

Well, I can't help that I thought it was so bad that I gave up after four episodes.

As for today's "wokeness", I do find it opressive. What happens if you have a different opinion? Now, then you can end up in trouble.

Maybe the political climate is different in the US than in certain European countries where "wokeness" has reached a level in which ony one opinion is acceptable and people can be fired from their jobs and being harrassed critcized in the media for having the "wrong opinion" when it comes to some issues.

 

[DonIago]

I have no problem with you giving up after four episodes; I have a problem with you using four episodes to paint the rest of the series with a broad brush when I know you know that the show goes through at least one major shift between those four episodes and where it's at now. Would you judge Voyager based on its first four episodes?

Depending on the nature of those other opinions, which you haven't provided examples of, maybe people deserve to end up in trouble. If one is opining that they miss the good old days of unquestioned white male superiority while deriding how "woke" everything is these days? I rather think they deserve to end up in some trouble.

 

[Markonian]

Can we just go back to calling it Social Justice Warrior?

 

[Skipper]

I think if Tasha had stayed there would have simply been too many main characters. It would have been more complicated for the writers to find something for EVERYONE to do every episode.

 

[Skipper]

Incidentally, one aspect that was never explored in TNG is that with all those civilians the Enterprise was basically a small town where the Chief of Security was the sheriff. In my opinion, interesting stories could arise from this starting point.

 

[Timewalker]

This shows a flagrant disregard for the series, in that after S2 it undergoes a major premise change and S4 is perhaps the most true to the higher ideals of the franchise series of episodes I've seen in a long time. But by all means, condemn an entire series based on 4 episodes.

I have no problem with you giving up after four episodes; I have a problem with you using four episodes to paint the rest of the series with a broad brush when I know you know that the show goes through at least one major shift between those four episodes and where it's at now. Would you judge Voyager based on its first four episodes?

It's not often I agree with Lynx about the merits of particular spinoffs, but in this case, we are in agreement. I did give DiscoTrek more than 4 episodes, and it's a bit hilarious that the only part I liked is the arc that everyone else seems to hate.

Even so, I found it unappealing, and never could fathom how Burnham could be so chummy with Sarek about Starfleet when Sarek wouldn't even speak to Spock for 18 YEARS.

And that whole "Sarek has a human foster-daughter" thing? It was old news in the 1970s. The fanfic writers did it first.

So yeah, there are people who saw no point in forcing themselves to keep watching stuff they don't find entertaining, and guess what - it's not a sin. I gave it what I consider a fair chance, and it failed to entertain me. Ditto Picard. That horrific scene with Icheb was the last straw. I haven't seen any new Trek since. I don't even get the TV channel it was on anymore - it was an extra one and I didn't consider it worth the money.

As for Tasha, I liked her. She was a more interesting character than Counselor Obvious (always stating things everyone knows anyway).

 

[DonIago]

^Which arc did you like that everyone else seems to hate? The MU arc? Heh.

I kind of liked what "Lethe" did in terms of explaining why Sarek was so upset when Spock opted not to join the VSA.

In any case, I don't mind people not liking Discovery; I certainly barely like Picard and waited a long time to watch S3. I mind people condemning the entire series based on limited exposure, and I mind people refusing to acknowledge the possibility that the series might have improved after they stopped watching.

This is fine: I hated Discovery, but maybe it got better after I stopped watching.
This is not: I hated Discovery. It's all doom and gloom and the series sucks.

Let's not forget that, for many people, TNG's first two seasons (48 episodes!!!) are basically nothing to write home about. But if someone posted about how much TNG sucks based on only having seen episodes from those first two seasons they'd be pilloried.

 

[Timewalker]

You're still trying to police people's opinions, which is not fine. You don't need to 'splain TNG's first couple of seasons to me; that's the first series that I was around to watch from the start, and now, I've got a friend on a gaming forum who just discovered Star Trek last year. We've been having a very long PM conversation about TOS, TAS, and TNG as she watches the episodes, reads TOS novels, and we're both into fanfic (she's written some good stories).

So for me it's like discovering some of this all over again, as there's a lot I either forgot or back-burnered a very long time ago. We don't always agree on what the good episodes or novels are, and that's FINE.

 

[Orphalesion]

As for today's "wokeness", I do find it opressive. What happens if you have a different opinion? Now, then you can end up in trouble.

Maybe the political climate is different in the US than in certain European countries where "wokeness" has reached a level in which ony one opinion is acceptable and people can be fired from their jobs and being harrassed critcized in the media for having the "wrong opinion" when it comes to some issues.

Not saying that some things don't get taken to far sometimes. And I'm getting increasingly worried about a backlash the rest of us might have to face because of the much fewer people who do take it too far on occasions.
But...the "different opinions" Wokeness is against often include "this group has no right to exist/should be hidden from sight/should not have the same human rights as everyone else"
Those are wrong opinions.

 

[DonIago]

You're still trying to police people's opinions, which is not fine.

I hope you appeciate the irony of this statement.

 

[Ragitsu]

"Keeping Tasha"

...coming to a station near you, this fall!

 

[Timewalker]

I hope you appeciate the irony of this statement.

In what way is my statement "ironic"? All I see in your posts are "It's not okay if other people don't like the same things I like".

I've been quite vocal about the aspects of the various Star Trek series and movies I don't like. But my stating I don't like a TV show is very different from my stating that I don't like the fans who like them. People can like whatever they want. It doesn't change the fact that I won't necessarily agree with them, and vice versa.

I actually gave DiscoTrek more time than I'd normally give to something that was so extremely aggravating. It's like nuDune - I gave it more of my finite lifespan than I might do otherwise, because I hoped it would improve. It's not my fault if my tolerance level was reached sooner than you find acceptable.

 

[DonIago]

^But are you vocal in refusing to accept the possibility that the series might have improved after you stopped watching? Because that was what I was expressing frustration with, not with merely disliking the series.

 

[Timewalker]

^But are you vocal in refusing to accept the possibility that the series might have improved after you stopped watching? Because that was what I was expressing frustration with, not with merely disliking the series.

It's your opinion that it improved. You have the right to that opinion, and I've never said otherwise.

I don't actually care if it improved or didn't, because I just plain don't like Burnham. Get rid of her, get rid of those Doctor Who-type monsters masquerading as Klingons, and then I might have given the show another chance.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Incidentally, one aspect that was never explored in TNG is that with all those civilians the Enterprise was basically a small town where the Chief of Security was the sheriff. In my opinion, interesting stories could arise from this starting point.

DS9 was more like that, as a port of call for many races and ships, aligned and otherwise. TNG's security would be more like a military base with MPs - most civilians on the Enterprise would be short-term passengers evacuated/en route elsewhere in an emergency, or Starfleet brats and spouses, or at the very least, civilians "contractors" and their families, (soon-to-be) familiar with the runnings of a secured, closed ship.

 

[Shawnster]

I wonder what the original vision was like. Surely Roddenberry, Fontana, and the others around at the inception of TNG had some vague idea that the show might last more than 1 season. I wonder how they imagined Tasha (and Worf) were going to develop.

Also interesting that Sirtis auditioned for the role of Yar. Now that would have been interesting. Crosby as counselor, Sirtis as tactical/security. Crosby still leaves, so what happens? New counselor? No more counselor?

And Worf seems to be a utility character in the 1st season. He can be tactical, security, conn, or ops.

 

[DonIago]

I'm not sure TPTB actually considered expanded character arcs; I always got the sense that with TNG in particular character development was kind of made up on the fly except for the basics established at the beginning of the series, similar to TOS.

 

[Shaka Zulu]

I have no problem with you giving up after four episodes; I have a problem with you using four episodes to paint the rest of the series with a broad brush when I know you know that the show goes through at least one major shift between those four episodes and where it's at now. Would you judge Voyager based on its first four episodes?

Depending on the nature of those other opinions, which you haven't provided examples of, maybe people deserve to end up in trouble. If one is opining that they miss the good old days of unquestioned white male superiority while deriding how "woke" everything is these days? I rather think they deserve to end up in some trouble.

Personally, although I've never seen Discovery or Picard, I'll bet that both shows had a first season just as good as the first season of TOS. I find that most of the people complaining about the episodes don't like these shows being a lot more forward with their progressive messages than TOS, TNG, or DS9 (in particular this episode of DS9 which, IMHO didn't go as far as it was supposed to addressing the issue it was about.) Said episodes that has commentary relating to current-day events and issues pissed people off with how far and how much they relate to present-day issues? Good, I'm glad that they did; good drama's supposed to make you think, and if it pissed off people to realize that they're in the wrong, maybe they won't be in the wrong next time, and will try to be on the right side of history for a change.

And that whole "Sarek has a human foster-daughter" thing? It was old news in the 1970s. The fanfic writers did it first.

Discovery's having the plot point about Sarek adapting a human daughter may be 'old hat' to you, but for me (and many others who didn't have access to said fan fiction stories) it was a great plot point.

Not saying that some things don't get taken to far sometimes. And I'm getting increasingly worried about a backlash the rest of us might have to face because of the much fewer people who do take it too far on occasions.

You and other progressive Americans (if you're one) like you should be concerned, Orphalesion, because this kind of 'progressive change' (actually, extremism) is what caused people, IMHO, to vote for Trump, with said voting of him in being the backlash mentioned by you (and which was also warned against in these three opinion pieces.

But...the "different opinions" Wokeness is against often include "this group has no right to exist/should be hidden from sight/should not have the same human rights as everyone else"
Those are wrong opinions.

I agree, but the far left and the emoprogressive left do it in a way that pisses people off, which is why you see how people like Lynx are.

 

[Timewalker]

Discovery's having the plot point about Sarek adapting a human daughter may be 'old hat' to you, but for me (and many others who didn't have access to said fan fiction stories) it was a great plot point.

Some of them have been uploaded on various sites. There are some good stories out there.

 

[Skipper]

I'm not sure TPTB actually considered expanded character arcs; I always got the sense that with TNG in particular character development was kind of made up on the fly except for the basics established at the beginning of the series, similar to TOS.

I always had the impression that nobody really knew what they were doing at the beginning. What saved the first season of TNG (well aside from the "Star Trek" name) is that all TV sci-fi before it was so low quality that this new series simply shined bright in comparison.