Kahless Mimicking Voices?

[Redfern]

"Gastromancy"? *Snicker* Sound like sorcery invoked by flatulence.

Sincerely,

Bill

 

[SermanyuQngan]

...Of course, we can also say that Kahless in all of his incarnations was a skilled ventriloquist. Perhaps all Klingons are that by their very nature?
Kahless never had a need or chance to demonstrate the skill in any of his other appearances.
But theoretically, somebody like Worf might have made use of the skill if it were a species trait - say, when imprisoned by the Breen.

Timo Saloniemi

Yes, your right, I would imagine THAT certainly could be a natural trait of a species in which “The Hunt” was so central to the culture.
Being able to throw one’s own voice or mimic the sound of a game animal or even a prey animal could understandably have been a
survival trait which was proliferated in Klingon evolution.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

For an utterly trivial example, consider: we do not know exactly what he said in his address at Gettysburg. The drafts of his speech are not perfectly consistent, and wouldn't bind him rigorously to the exact words he used, and newspaper accounts vary, in some cases enormously. What the crowd reaction to the speech was is impossible to determine given the abundance of inconsistent documentation available.

Interesting, I was actually not away of that. It's sad to say the same sort of thing is still pretty prevalent even today. Most of the details the general public remembers and believes about major incidents are usually nothing more than speculation made by the talking heads on the 24 hr cable networks, which is often completely wrong. By the time the real facts are discovered and revealed, the public's attention has moved on to the next headline and those real facts tend to be forgotten.

If we can't know with reasonable certainty the proceedings of three minutes, witnessed by thousands of people and reported on widely in the press at the time, and remembered by its witnesses for decades after, there's room for reasonable people to question the great themes of his life.

While it's true we cannot know with certainty what another man, contemporary or historical, truly feels about anything, there is little room to doubt Lincoln's sincerity or earnestness when it comes to "the great themes of his life" (and of course I'm not implying you have done so in any way with your post). However, he was very consistent about where he stood on the convictions he's famous for holding, and it's pretty clear what those close to him felt about the quality of his character. If you've not read it, Team of Rivals is one of the best books about Lincoln and is highly recommended.

A fellow African-American/black American/POC/American/dark-brown individual currently studying at a HBCU (Historical Black College and University) recently posted this quote on his Facebook page, something Lincoln said during a debate around 1858:

I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And in as much as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything. I do not understand that because I do not want a negro woman for a slave I must necessarily want her for a wife. My understanding is that I can just let her alone.

So, based on Kirk's idealized version of the man - Lincoln - he was thought of as a 'great' man, even though some, like myself, may not think of him so highly. I'm sure if the Excalbians had initially scanned and tested someone like Worf or Martok, we would have got a heroic Kahless on the 'good' side...and probably not depicted as a villain of history.

 

[Timo]

...Perhaps that's what they are doing - taking the most heroic and most villainous characters from the minds of visitors, and then turning the roles around for the next visitor? The previous Earth vessel to have visited the place might have considered Lincoln the vilest wrongdoer in Earth history (in which case Green might also well be his or her hero), while the previous Klingon might have venerated Kahless. Perhaps a Romulan gave them the idea that Surak was the epitome of evil?

They claim they took Lincoln from Kirk's mind, but the other characters were created later - perhaps Lincoln was "stock"?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Noname Given]

So I was rewatching The Savage Curtain, and it reminded me of some canonical issues that need to get excused for that episode. Namely Kahless, who is shown to look exactly like a 23rd century, TOS Klingon and is said to be evil and to be the originator of the Klingons' evil ways. Obviously when this episode was made in the 60s, that was purely the intent. After the Klingons had been revised, the excuse is that it is how Kirk and Spock envision Kahless.

One of the things that is harder to explain is the false Kahless having the ability to perfectly mimic voices. This was nowhere mentioned in any of the later episodes, and so far as I know it does not seem to be explained or brought up anywhere else. One explanation would be the image of Kahless was given that ability by the Excalbians, but that doesn't make sense. This Kahless, if he comes from Kirk's and Spock's head, has to come from some idea that Kahless was capable of that. And the idea may come from Federation propaganda which was totally invented or at least an exaggeration. Or it may have been something real.

So any thoughts on the explanation?

There's no explanation needed as remember all the historical characters were taken from Kirk's and Spock's own minds; thus for Khaless, it was exactly what and how the Federation viewed him from whatever sources they had, as well as how Federation military and historical authors 'spun' things as they wrote about him.

Also, just because something was never mentioned in later episodes, it doesn't invalidate the fact something was mentioned in this episode. Just because we never saw the reincarnated/cloned Khaless mimic voices, it doesn't mean he didn't have the ability - just that there was no situation in the story being told that needed it.

 

[Timo]

One wonders how much Kirk would know about Klingons at that point. None of his crew appear to speak the language, while some of Picard's know at least a few words and expressions. Kirk never mentions the honor culture of the Empire, while Picard's folks are well versed in it (perhaps thanks to Worf preaching about it). Kirk has Klingon "trophies" (fake souvenirs?) in his wall in the ST:GEN pseudo-flashbacks, but Picard is an honorary Klingon!

OTOH, Klingons seem to be much more a mystery and a source of fear for the TNG folks. Kirk just deals with them as with any foe of the week.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[SermanyuQngan]

Wait... We are forgetting about the smooth forehead!

 

[Nerys Myk]

One wonders how much Kirk would know about Klingons at that point. None of his crew appear to speak the language, while some of Picard's know at least a few words and expressions. Kirk never mentions the honor culture of the Empire, while Picard's folks are well versed in it (perhaps thanks to Worf preaching about it). Kirk has Klingon "trophies" (fake souvenirs?) in his wall in the ST:GEN pseudo-flashbacks, but Picard is an honorary Klingon!

OTOH, Klingons seem to be much more a mystery and a source of fear for the TNG folks. Kirk just deals with them as with any foe of the week.

Timo Saloniemi

Post Khitomer and Narendra III, there seems to be a thawing of the relationship between the Federation and the Empire and they became uneasy allies. So I imagine information about both flowed more easily.

Not sure about the Klingons being feared and mysterious in TNG. Though even the Vulcans, a key member of the Federation and Earth's closes ally, maintained some mysteries over the centuries.