Just watched `Profit and Lace' and `Valiant'

[Nebusj]

Could I have a little reassurance there are still good things in the world, please?

(Actually, I kind of liked `Valiant', but I've been following Marrissa Picard and the Kids Crew eagerly for over a decade now. `Profit and Lace' I can see some moments where I can kind of see there'd be something more there, but then it kind of dissipates into a slog through the scenes.)

 

[GodThingFormerly]

Nebusj said:
Could I have a little reassurance there are still good things in the world, please?

1).

2).

3).

TGT

 

[DanTheGrey]

There are better things in the world. There is still sunshine, puppy dogs, beer, "In the Pale Moonlight", chocolate and dreams. You'll surivive.

Then again in my personal rankings, "Take Me Out to the Holosuite" is about on par with Profit and Lace...

 

[Phily B]

What was wrong with Valiant? I loved when those assholes were like "Shit..." and got wrecked.

 

[DarthPipes]

I liked Valiant too. Originally it was supposed to be Kira and Jake but the producers were convinced that Kira would have single-handidly kicked the butt of Red Squad and taken command of the ship.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

Well, neither of these are my favorite episodes. Profit and Lace is just BAD. And Valiant is not really bad or anything...but it *is* about the only episode in the entire show where I was rooting for the bad guys, and was happy to see the Federation ship go KABOOM!!!

Watters was a arrogant little twerp who got what he deserved.

 

[Jack Bauer]

Phily B said:
What was wrong with Valiant? I loved when those assholes were like "Shit..." and got wrecked.

What was wrong is that what you just said was the only good thing in the episode.

 

[anti-matter]

WOW! I can't imagine the circumstances that would make me watch both `Profit and Lace' and `Valiant' intentionally. well at least you survived it...what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

 

[nx1701g]

Valiant happens to be one of my favorite episodes of DS9. Vash/PKTrekGirl may ban me for that.

Just kidding - I always poke and prod over Valiant

 

[PKTrekGirl]

^ Well, I have been trying to work on my attitude about Valiant lately. I am trying to look at it as Lower Decks - DS9 Style.

And as with all DS9 comparisons to TNG, the DS9 characters are alot more flawed.

Only this time, even more-so! So flawed, in fact, that you are actually happy when they get blown to smithereens!

 

[DostoyevskyClone]

I'll just add to what many have already said - I thought 'Valiant' was a solid episode. I think part of the reason the episode worked for me was that we got to see another 'crew' in the Federation and get a slightly different perspective of things. Not having the authority and absolute 'rightness' of Sisko and Co. around made things interesting...

But yes, I share the sentiment regarding 'Profit and Lace' - one of Trek's very few but truly 'poor' episodes.

 

[Unicron]

Valiant would have been better if they hadn't just killed the cadets off with a plot device. Yes, they were annoying, but the kids are not that stupid. They have a strategy for taking out the battleship even though it would be better not to attack it (as Jake says), yet the attack conveniently fails just so the majority of the crew can be killed off.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

^ Are you kidding???

Killing them off was the best part of the entire episode!

Annoying little twerps.

 

[Unicron]

Again, I don't consider it fair to the characters to kill them off just because the writers already made them annoying. Anymore than it was fair to kill off all those redshirts in TOS, because they couldn't afford to kill a main character.

And I wouldn't mind them dying, if their deaths actually had a point. As the script is written, it doesn't. It's as much a plot device as the advanced Dominion ship is. I don't think Sito's death has a point in "Lower Decks" either, the way it's written. It could have been handled better.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

^ Their deaths DID have a point. Their deaths made me very happy. All the point I need.

 

[Unicron]

 

[Apogeal Alpha01]

C'mon. The kids were Valiant. Overmatched and arrogant, they had the right stuff, at least the stuff you'd want in junior officers. Valiant makes the point that exceptional leadership is rare in most instances, and their leader was in over his head. Somewhere there was a significant failure in their training because anyone with an ounce of brains would have headed back to port not long after their captain was killed, with the mission completed.

 

[Unicron]

But their mission wasn't completed until long after the original captain was killed, plus they were behind enemy lines with a top speed of warp 3. Don't get me wrong, I agree with Jake that they shouldn't have gone for the glory. It was not the sensible suggestion once they got info on the new battleship. But since they did go for the glory, I would have preferred to have them get killed with a little dignity. Not merely because the script says they have to die.

I suppose the other reason is I think this ep helped solidify the stereotype that most cadets are brash, arrogant and hot-headed. That is not true at all, but unfortunately that's how the writers prefer to portray them. It's a little like if you made a film about the war in Iraq, and depicted most American soldiers as always being hungry for battle. Obviously it would be a very inaccurate depiction.

 

[Apogeal Alpha01]

Specifically though, a group of cadets in an exclusive group named Red Squad, who were allowed to think themselves superior to other cadets, and probably the equal of the run-of-the-mill officers serving Starfleet. Nothing wrong with brash and arrogant junior officers with the proper direction from superior officers. Think Jean Luc Picard and Lt. Commander Shelby. (Best of Both Worlds)

 

[Dream]

The only part of the episode "Vaiant" that I loved was when the attack failed and the show blew up really good. The other cadets really pissed me off. I kept wanting someone like Sisko or Picard to kick their asses.

The less said about "Profit and Lace" the better...