Just watched "And the Children Shall Lead" Again...

[Nebusj]

Heck, they could have reused the asteroid field footage from "Mudd's Women" and "The Doomsday Machine" so Sulu was under a false but believable impression, right?

Because giant space daggers are ridiculous, while giant space amoebas, giant space Bugle chips, and giant space Greco-Roman God hands are normal occurrences?

(Man, wouldn't it stink to be in the middle of dealing with one ridiculous crisis and have another ridiculous crisis break out in the middle of it? ``Aw, man, annoying space children and Vaal ripped the space-time continuum a new one?'')

 

[Vandervecken]

This is definitely a tie in my bottom 4: this POS, Turnabout Intruder, Is There in Truth No Beauty?, and The Paradise Syndrome. Seriously, Spock's Brain beats those 4. At least Spock's Brain is occasionally entertaining.

On the mental power thing: here I actually don't have a problem. Yes, daggers in space should be ridiculous to any person in his right mind, and if all Gorgon's little rascals were doing was making people see illusions, while their victims' full mental faculties were still engaged, this objection would be right on. But they're doing more than that---they're instilling deep emotions: overwhelming horror, terror, etc. And, I think, directly interfering with people's critical faculties. Some sort of neocortical suppression is going on (in addition to the illusions and telempathy), possibly coupled with hindbrain/hippocampal amplification.

 

[Robert Comsol]

But they're doing more than that---they're instilling deep emotions: overwhelming horror, terror, etc. And, I think, directly interfering with people's critical faculties. Some sort of neocortical suppression is going on (in addition to the illusions and telempathy), possibly coupled with hindbrain/hippocampal amplification.

I get the idea that they were influenced and intimidated, but apparently still had the mental capacities to do their jobs, and Sulu might have noticed that oversized "space daggers" arranged like this (hmm...sounds like an alternate title proposal for this episode) aren't exactly the kind of thing you encounter in space on a regular basis.

Unless that's a Star Trek story we haven't seen, yet.

Bob

 

[Timo]

None of the manipulations appear to be effective on people in possession of their faculties, as everybody has plenty of time to recover from the possible initial shock of the illusion. Nobody does, though, which tells us a lot.

And we know from Kirk's experiences in Gorgon's cave already that fear and surprise are his three main weapons. He's not trying anything clever with Kirk's men and women, such as presenting them with problems he hopes they will solve to their best ability yet in a way that satisfies his nefarious designs - he's driving them mad with the very simple power that defines him.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[scotpens]

For example, when Kirk's duplicated in a transporter accident and the first thing his other half does is seeks out that delicious yoman of his an outrage. I mean ... damn, Kirk, what's up with that?

Well, if you were split into a Jekyll and Hyde, what would your evil self do -- play really loud music and annoy the crap out of your neighbors? Roll through stop signs? Make fun of people wearing ugly clothes?

 

[2takesfrakes]

For example, when Kirk's duplicated in a transporter accident and the first thing his other half does is seeks out that delicious yoman of his an outrage. I mean ... damn, Kirk, what's up with that?

Well, if you were split into a Jekyll and Hyde, what would your evil self do -- play really loud music and annoy the crap out of your neighbors? Roll through stop signs? Make fun of people wearing ugly clothes?

Shit, I hate when I try to edit myself, insitu and screw up the sentences like that!

I hear ya ... but still, raping Janice Rand was just in incredibly bad taste and had I been the editor on TOS, I would've cut that part out. It should've been another yoman we weren't going to see again, or care about, at least ... not her. Not Rand. And then, to top it off, they make the poor, traumatized woman endure an interrogation from the very man who tried to molest her! It's not that I don't feel the subject of rape should be addressed in STAR TREK, I guess it's just that STAR TREK was never really any good at addressing social issues, other than ham-handedly - take "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield" as Exhibit A, in that regard.

 

[Vandervecken]

None of the manipulations appear to be effective on people in possession of their faculties, as everybody has plenty of time to recover from the possible initial shock of the illusion. Nobody does, though, which tells us a lot.

But I'm suggesting that the reason they fall prey at all to these illusions is because their critical faculties are f'd up--as long as the kids are concentrating.

And we know from Kirk's experiences in Gorgon's cave already that fear and surprise are his three main weapons.
Timo Saloniemi

...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope?*










*You were waiting for someone to do that, weren't you?

 

[ZapBrannigan]

One of the main reasons "Children" is a horrible episode is that the plot makes our characters behave in unrealistic ways for unrealistic reasons.

The kids' weapon is to mess up their minds so bad that Kirk, of all people, is crippled with free-floating anxiety (foreshadowing the worst, murkiest novels of Marshak & Culbreath) and Sulu is as mentally disabled as a man dreaming. Along with being phony, this means we can't relate to them and they can't stand in for us as the space heroes we'd like to be.

Messing up their minds is an easy gimmick that says "anything goes." It's the writer's equivalent of playing tennis with the net down.

 

[Albertese]

And we know from Kirk's experiences in Gorgon's cave already that fear and surprise are his three main weapons.
Timo Saloniemi

...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope?

Come on, man. I'm sure he didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition.

--Alex

 

[Timo]

[cut to the fish-slapping dance]

But I'm suggesting that the reason they fall prey at all to these illusions is because their critical faculties are f'd up--as long as the kids are concentrating.

Yup, I'm agreeing with that. I just wanted to contradict Bob Comsol's argument that the continuing ability to fly a starship proves Sulu isn't mentally f'd up. There are "real life" situations where he might be scared stiff and still able to remember how to adjust warp speed, so there should be room for a situation where he's artificially driven to irrational fear and still knows how to turn the knobs.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[2takesfrakes]

Isn't it something, though, how so much of STAR TREK has to be excused in this manner? Having to come up with excuses for poor writing and aweful direction? Do we love TOS really, because "It's So Bad, It's Good"?

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Isn't it something, though, how so much of STAR TREK has to be excused in this manner? Having to come up with excuses for poor writing and aweful direction? Do we love TOS really, because "It's So Bad, It's Good"?

I've been thinking lately, based on your recent posts, that you are not a TOS fan at all. This latest one pretty much confirms it.

And anyway, "Children" is the furthest thing from a representative episode.

 

[bbailey861]

Isn't it something, though, how so much of STAR TREK has to be excused in this manner? Having to come up with excuses for poor writing and aweful direction? Do we love TOS really, because "It's So Bad, It's Good"?

I've been thinking lately, based on your recent posts, that you are not a TOS fan at all. This latest one pretty much confirms it.

And anyway, "Children" is the furthest thing from a representative episode.

Word. On both points.