Just how common is interstellar travel in the 24th century, really ?

[Silvercrest]

Re: Just how common is interstellar travel in the 24th century, really

A few years ago I proposed that the Federation simply doesn't authorize civilian ships to travel outside of previously explored space, or at least doesn't authorize them to visit new systems until Starfleet gives the all-clear. You have to file a flight plan that keeps you in known space. If they find you elsewhere, it's a chargeable offense.

This would help to keep civilians out of trouble in general, but it would also ensure that most first-contact situations were limited to Starfleet. Plus, of course, it would ensure civilians were not in a position to violate the PD. In my proposal, civilians don't swear any kind of oath to the PD and it's not binding on them -- but they can be arrested for simply being there at all. This would be equally true in both the 23rd and 24th centuries.

How many exceptions to this idea have we seen? That is, situations when civilians were found outside known space and it was not treated as unusual? The only exception I can think of is Okona, and I'm not even sure he belonged to the Federation.

 

[Timo]

Re: Just how common is interstellar travel in the 24th century, really

How many exceptions to this idea have we seen? That is, situations when civilians were found outside known space and it was not treated as unusual? The only exception I can think of is Okona, and I'm not even sure he belonged to the Federation.

It might be pointed out that such presence is never found worth commenting even in cases of explicit PD violation. Merrick's ship was spotted near a planet that might be off limits, nyt our heroes didn't find this in itself surprising or illegal, etc.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Silvercrest]

Re: Just how common is interstellar travel in the 24th century, really

Hmm, I haven't watched that episode in a long time. If there are enough cases where it's never commented on, then the idea doesn't hold up.

Still, you'd think the Federation would regulate that sort of thing. Otherwise they'd regularly wind up at war with this empire or that because some freighter captain tried amateur diplomacy -- or cowboy diplomacy -- for a botched first contact.

Edit to add: Except that we've seen cases with characters like Harry Mudd or Nikolai Rozhenko whose presence is commented on. Granted, the commentary is usually directed at their suspicious activities or questionable background, but that could be taken to implicitly cover my idea. Flight-plan or other violations wouldn't be worth a mention if the character is already committing more serious crimes.

I guess the question would really be how many "Merrick" examples there are vs. how many "Mudd"; i.e. how many cases where realistically they would have cited the violation (if it existed) in the absence of anything more suspicious — vs. cases where it could be excused because more important things are occurring. That should tell us if the idea holds up.

 

[T'Girl]

Re: Just how common is interstellar travel in the 24th century, really

A few years ago I proposed that the Federation simply doesn't authorize civilian ships to travel outside of previously explored space, or at least doesn't authorize them to visit new systems until Starfleet gives the all-clear.

Staying in "explored space" would not keep civilians away from primative planets (although that might be a big part of Starfleet's mission). There wouldn't be known space and then all primative planets would be nicely outside of that, the star systems would be all mixed together.

Traveling between two Federation Members could result in you closely passing a dozen systems with primative worlds in them.

The only exception I can think of is Okona, and I'm not even sure he belonged to the Federation.

My impression was that Okona was part of a pre-warp society which was not a part of the Federation. Not that that stopped Picard from entering the system like he owned it.

Cyrno Jones was a private explorer, iirc part of the off screen back story invented for him (non-canon) was that his main occupation was searching out new planets for colonization.

 

[Timo]

Re: Just how common is interstellar travel in the 24th century, really

If there are enough cases where it's never commented on, then the idea doesn't hold up.

AFAIK, there's only one known case where a civilian vessel was explicitly deemed naughty for going off the beaten path - the Raven in the "Dark Frontier" flashbacks deviated from her filed flight plan to follow the Borg tracks. But while deviating from a flight plan was considered a bad thing, where the ship deviated exactly was not explicated as illegal. (Plus, we can argue whether the "USS" Raven was civilian in the first place, or rather something fuzzy between civilian and government.)

No civilian ship has received negative comment for being found at a "wilderness" location in any of the Trek incarnations. Some have been declared in violation of specific no-go zones such as the Romulan Neutral Zone, though - but that doesn't set them apart from Starfleet as such.

I guess the question would really be how many "Merrick" examples there are vs. how many "Mudd"; i.e. how many cases where realistically they would have cited the violation (if it existed) in the absence of anything more suspicious — vs. cases where it could be excused because more important things are occurring. That should tell us if the idea holds up.

Finding a derelict ship is a recurring plot element, but the plots don't leave it at that, since derelicts are uninteresting but people are interesting. So the crew of the ship is always found, too, and often alive. This can only happen if the crew is on an uninhabited planet or a planet with a "wild" or foreign culture, since otherwise the civilized natives would already have conducted all the finding.

Finding people on an uninhabited world typically deals with how they survived against odds, it being revealed that they cheated / they didn't really survive /etc. In cases like this, the survivors or "survivors" are never chastised for their presence.

Finding people on an inhabited world in turn invariably deals with interaction with the locals. Since this is always a PD or at least "delicate politics" issue for our heroes (even if not for the castaways), we get PD discussions, but never PD accusations leveled at the civilians, beyond the Merrick case.

Also, Worf's stepbrother was present on a "wild" world, yes - but his presence was authorized. Only his actions were not. And Nikolai didn't appear to have an independent means of travel, suggesting Starfleet took him there.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Silvercrest]

Re: Just how common is interstellar travel in the 24th century, really

"Explored space" is just a term you'd use for anyplace that's already known; it wasn't meant to say that that every cubic foot has been explored or imply anything about unexplored areas that might be mixed in. There could be plenty of those. I can use another term if you want.

You could closely pass as many unexplored or primitive systems as you want as long as you didn't enter them, and your Official Federation Flight Authorization™ would say so. If you go outside where you're authorized to be, you get smacked-- at least if you're caught. If you enter inhabited systems, you get smacked harder. If you take it on yourself to make first contact-- well.

"Okona" referred to the individual by that name, not the episode.

Cyrano Jones as a private explorer might have had some sort of Federation license or dispensation for that purpose. The Hansens could have been applying for the same thing. I didn't mean to say that Starfleet is the only body that can ever go beyond the boundaries, only that it's not reasonable for the Federation to allow just anyone.

Edit to add: That was directed at T'Girl's post. Timo, I guess there are enough examples to the contrary that I'll have to withdraw the suggestion. (I didn't remember that Nikolai was authorized, either.)

I still maintain that from a reasonable standpoint, it's something the Federation should have regulated.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Re: Just how common is interstellar travel in the 24th century, really

I would think traveling outside Federation space would be like traveling in international waters. Nobody's stopping you but if you do you lose the protection of the Federation.

If the Federation forbade its citizens to leave its borders without permission, that would be pretty tyrannical. A free society does not own its citizens. It offers protections and assistance in exchange for following its rules and maintains order within its borders.

You would probably need a passport to enter space owned by other political bodies, of course. Or rather, you'd need a few slips of latinum.

It is a wonder that the Ferengi haven't crafted exploitative business relationships with every pre-warp planet in the galaxy.

 

[T'Girl]

Re: Just how common is interstellar travel in the 24th century, really

I still maintain that from a reasonable standpoint, it's something the Federation should have regulated.

As mentioned previously, it would depend on where the ship was registered out of

If I (a Human) wanted to venture off the beaten path and land on a inhabited primitive planet, I would surely change the flag my vessel warps under to "Planet Monaco," a delightfully neutral star principality, this would allow me to legally ignore any Starfleet vessels attempting to blockade my destination.

Who knows when some ultra low-tech culture is going to introduce a free trader to the next chocolate, or tobacco, or maize?

 

[at Quark's]

Re: Just how common is interstellar travel in the 24th century, really

If the Federation forbade its citizens to leave its borders without permission, that would be pretty tyrannical. A free society does not own its citizens.

As I understand Silvercrest's idea , not forbid to leave its borders, but to leave the borders of explored space (whatever that may mean).

But has there ever been a state in our real world history that prohibited its citizens to travel to regions simply because they were not yet well explored by its military? Of course there were and there are nations like North Korea that views pretty much any other country as an enemy threat or/and would like to keep it citizens from fleeing the 'motherland', but I think that's a different situation ......

 

[Silvercrest]

Re: Just how common is interstellar travel in the 24th century, really

It is a wonder that the Ferengi haven't crafted exploitative business relationships with every pre-warp planet in the galaxy.

How do you think Ralph Offenhouse made out once he contacted the Ferengi? There was no way that wasn't gonna happen.

If the Federation forbade its citizens to leave its borders without permission, that would be pretty tyrannical. A free society does not own its citizens.

As I understand Silvercrest's idea , not forbid to leave its borders, but to leave the borders of explored space (whatever that may mean).

That was the idea, but I suppose it could be read several ways, including some that are quite tyrannical. The idea was to regulate travel so as to prevent inconvenience for both the travelers and the people they may encounter. Same as filing a flight plan before taking a jaunt in your private plane, instead of setting down without warning in the nearest airfield-- or in a hostile nation.

But has there ever been a state in our real world history that prohibited its citizens to travel to regions simply because they were not yet well explored by its military?

I don't think there's a modern-day equivalent. In our world it isn't a risk, but in Trek there's a very real concern about 1) stampeding over the development of other races, and more prosaically, 2) incurring the ire of a military empire with enough firepower to stomp you into a greasy spot — simply because some yay-hoo sabotaged any chance of diplomacy from day one.

 

[Mojochi]

Re: Just how common is interstellar travel in the 24th century, really

Starfleet has been known to quarantine planets & systems & even areas of space like the Great Barrier. I'd think uncharted territory or known areas with primitive inhabitants could be treated similarly for any ships originating from Federation territory. There might even be diplomatic efforts by Starfleet, along the lines of attempting to secure non-interference from outside influences, for these places

This has become a rather interesting topic

 

[Mountie1988]

Re: Just how common is interstellar travel in the 24th century, really

1. Unless you own an abrams-verse connie or some old vulcan starmaps, it would take several days if not weeks to get from one system to another with a standard warp factor. So i'd say you cannot compare it to private or commercial flying but rather to pre-ww2 ocean lining. Furthermore this would imply that if citizens of earth visited risa on vacation there would be a market for cruise ships and some ports of call en route as the average joe would not want to spend most of his two-week vacation in vast empty space. I guess.

2. Then starfleet is very sensitive about its pd. So i also guess the federation would be interested in keeping the number of interstellar vessels down. That could be achieved either by state-enforced starship-control or by reducing the costs of interstellar travel on 'star liners' to a level at which privately owned shuttles and runabouts would be non-economical, unless you are a freighter captain. Or a hobby-archaeologist.

3. We tend to forget that a warp drive is powered by anti-deuterium - pretty powerful stuff. The matter-to-energy conversion of an antimatter-reaction is 1000x higher than that of nuclear fission. And you wouldn't want even your most reasonable neighbor to have a nuclear power plant in his cellar. So in my opinion it's a bit irresponsible of 24th century governments to give that much power to the people.

By the way - imagine the containment field of vengeance's reactor would have collapsed - in san francisco.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Re: Just how common is interstellar travel in the 24th century, really

I would think venturing out into unexplored space would be self-policing. Considering well known legends about things that happened to various Enterprises and other deep space exploration vessels, you would need an incredible amount of resources just to be safe outside of explored space.

Heck, the Enterprise-D, at the time the most heavily armed vessel in the fleet, was transported just 7000 light years and ran into the Borg.

Also most Federation citizens are probably raised to respect the PD.

 

[Mojochi]

Re: Just how common is interstellar travel in the 24th century, really

That's a good point I hadn't thought about. Warp power certainly is a volatile s.o.b Not really something any general person might be able to maintain, You'd at least have to be operating a crew of some number of knowledgeable engineers, even if it's only just a few folks, they'd be a costly asset

 

[Silvercrest]

Re: Just how common is interstellar travel in the 24th century, really

Very good point. Not quite like flying a private plane.

 

[Hypaspist]

Re: Just how common is interstellar travel in the 24th century, really

Another thing of note is how many travelers are renegades in some way. I'm thinking of Bones trying to get a ship to take him to Genesis and the morally questionable captain of said ship. Even in the same movie, at the beginning, those guys on that junk ship didn't really seem to be acting with the best of intentions.

Also how many hazards is it likely that there were everywhere you went. Orion isn't that far from Earth, relatively speaking, and that is the home of the Orion pirates. Then you have space madness, doomsday machines, malevolent demigods, and pretty much everything that screws up even Starfleet's finest. I doubt space travel is really all that safe outside of well established and defended transport routes.

 

[wulfio]

Re: Just how common is interstellar travel in the 24th century, really

if people 300 years ago had the slightest idea what an airplane was, I'm sure they could never imagine a regular person owning one and being able to maintain and operate it themselves. I'm sure if you'd ask them they'd reply it's not like owning a sail boat or horse and buggy.

 

[Timo]

Re: Just how common is interstellar travel in the 24th century, really

I don't see the kaboom factor as an important hindrance to owning interstellar spacecraft. Automobiles today are weapons of mass destruction if used carelessly let alone maliciously, yet there are no limitations whatsoever on their ownership in most countries. Many nations are happy with their citizens possessing powerful ranged weapons, spying devices and poisons. And aircraft can still be privately owned, despite being leading delivery methods for the deadliest of WMDs imaginable, such as poisonous chemicals, radionuclides or aerial explosives.

In Trek terms, the transporter is accessible to the public, despite its many risks and capability for utter evil. And we do hear of private individuals possessing warp-capable vessels without there being anything criminal about it. (FWIW, private individuals also appear to legally possess death ray sidearms, suggesting not much has changed since the 20th century.)

The Great Barrier was off-limits in terms of rules and regulations? I don't think so - it was simply impenetrable, a no-return zone, a known danger to life and limb. If you wanted to go in, you did. Guarding individual planets against intrusion might be halfway plausible, or at least you could rig spysats that would catch quarantine violators in the act so that they could later be brought to justice. But guarding anything bigger than that, starting with star systems, should be impossible even with Star Trek technology. Rules written against intrusion of such regions would then merely expose the impotence of the law and weaken the public's trust in it.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[T'Girl]

Re: Just how common is interstellar travel in the 24th century, really

If the Federation forbade its citizens to leave its borders without permission, that would be pretty tyrannical. A free society does not own its citizens.

As I understand Silvercrest's idea , not forbid to leave its borders, but to leave the borders of explored space (whatever that may mean).

This would imply that Starfleet is the only group in the Federation that does any exploration. More ominous that the Federation Council expects to control the entire population to the point where no one would be able to venture out.

I have trouble seeing the Council being permitted this level of power by the people of the Federation.

On reflection, it might be better if the prime directive applied only to Starfleet and the governing body of the Federation. And not at all the people as a whole.

In The Devil in the Dark, after it was discovered that the planet held indigenous pre-warp sapient lifeforms, there was no discussion of the miners leaving. So pre-warp cultures can give permission for people from the Federation to stay and (among other things?) exploit natural resources.

 

[Timo]

Re: Just how common is interstellar travel in the 24th century, really

Also, the Federation and its Starfleet cannot keep foreign intruders away from UFP space - Klingons are regularly encountered basically right next to Earth, say. What hope would the Council have of keeping UFP private citizens from crossing the borders in the other direction? Firepower is of no use if one lacks the means of detection.

On reflection, it might be better if the prime directive applied only to Starfleet and the governing body of the Federation.

If the governing body cannot govern its own directives, what use is it? The Council must be able to vote down the PD, in part or in whole, even if this calls for more complex procedures than voting on the installation of traffic control beacons between Vulcan and T'Khut.

OTOH, it would be pretty simple to take all the evidence on the PD so far as indicating that it's a rule devised solely to keep the already excessively powerful starship captains from exercising their divine powers to personal gain, ideological benefit and other evil. There's no real harm in letting Cyrano Jones tell primitive aliens about the great whiskey they make in Aldebaran, as opposed to letting the commander of a powerful starship tell primitive aliens to stop using child labor.

Timo Saloniemi