Just how common is interstellar travel in the 24th century, really ?

[at Quark's]

Watched 'little green men' ep yesterday, in which quark gets 'his very own shuttle' (and being very proud of it, too). This got me wondering: just how common is interstellar travel (or posession of private craft) in the 24th century ?

Looking to trek superficially, I could get the impression that such travel is common in those days. Then again watching a series about 18th century navy or pirates could also give me the mistaken idea that an ocean voyage was a rather ordinary event for common people in those days.

If I try to compile what I see in trek, I'm getting this preliminary picture:

1) posessing your own ship, however small, seems to be out of reach for most peoples private means (but not for the wealthy. Just how wealthy one has to be is not entirely clear. Would it be on the same level you'd need today to own your own aircraft ?)

2) But, we do see a lot of (what looks like ) small-time traders and smugglers in ships. Although it is not always clear if the traders are also the owners of the ships, in some cases it is stated to be so. That could suggest that such ships could be in the financial reach of small (privately owned) companies.

3) Barring own ships, how does the average joe travel in space, if he travels at all ? (Assuming that starfleet vessels are as (in)accessible as a navy vessel is today). So, are there regular public transportation services between, say Earth and Vulcan ? Or do you have to contact a trader you know to book passage ? Suppose I have a simple (non-starfleet) job on earth, with no special connections, and I'd like to have a holiday on Bajor, could I arrange that or would it be quite difficult ?

4) We do hear and see a lot about shore leave (e.g. O' Brien traveling to Earth to celebrate his wife's mother 100th birthday), but can we infer from such mentions that such travel is very common ? Or is starfleet personnel privileged in some way ? (seeing as they often seem to use starfleet shuttles for said leave that wouldn't be available to the general public).

So, how many people really do 'trek' between the stars ?

 

[F. King Daniel]

Re: Just how common is interstellar travel in the 24th century, really

I think of it as being like how we go to airports and fly to other counties today - except it's spaceports and they take flights to other worlds. The flying cars and transporters take care of intercontinental travel.

Wrong century and timeline, but a background graphic at SFHQ in Into Darkness showed a ton of flights from San Francisco to Rigel, Risa, Organia and other worlds.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Re: Just how common is interstellar travel in the 24th century, really

Risa was shown as an absolutely stereotypical vacation resort, and it was crystal clear that that most people there were not Starfleet officers. How they get there isn't stated outright, but obviously they do get there, and I doubt they were all extremely powerful people with their own private ships. The logical idea would be a certain type of standard interplanetary transportation system that civilians can use - presumably it was just never mentioned because a) our heroes, being starfleet, didn't need it (and couldn't justify the extra cost of designing extra sets) and b) the interplanetary bus line doesn't make for a wildly interesting story.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Re: Just how common is interstellar travel in the 24th century, really

They probably have commercial transports.

 

[USS Triumphant]

Re: Just how common is interstellar travel in the 24th century, really

My inclination is to think that in the Federation, just about anyone CAN have an unarmed ship, but most people don't bother. They haven't bothered to train in the skills necessary for piloting or basic engineering, and even if they had, they'd be risking piracy or ending up as a derelict if they went outside the regular spacelanes. Much better for most people to travel by the regular passenger flights that I imagine would be run by Starfleet (or maybe a different government transit authority?) and established fairly quickly to any peaceful destinations worth going to. (In my mind, they run ships to and from Vulcan, Tellar, Andor, Betazed, Risa, etc., daily if not several times a day.) These ships would have redundant systems, trained crews, and possibly even light defense and weapons systems - a much better option for most. And I would think they offer these transports to places outside of the Federation, too - Bajor, for instance, at the time of "Little Green Men" - but for a price necessary to cover transit fees and such with any other stellar civilizations involved in making / allowing the trip. For a Federation citizen, even so, these would be paid on their behalf by the Federation, but Quark - a non-citizen - had to sell his ship (probably for the best for him, truthfully, since it was probably booby-trapped more ways than what they had already discovered) in order to make passage for himself and Rom (another non-citizen).

 

[Hypaspist]

Re: Just how common is interstellar travel in the 24th century, really

I'm not assuming that the Federation's economy (or lack thereof) extends off-planet. By the 24th century, there are a lot of people able and willing to travel. I think the events of Star Trek 6 as well as a general 'taming of space' in the Federation has led to dedicated civilian transports. This is obvious due to Raiza and some of the recurring characters.

I agree that it's not really feasible for the average joe to go out into space on its own. Think about how pilots licenses are pretty rare even still, now assume that we're talking about travel across oceans and that the planes themselves need a high level of maintenance and crew skills to use. I figure that the vast majority of people spend almost all of their lives on the surface of something.

 

[Mojochi]

Re: Just how common is interstellar travel in the 24th century, really

The 23rd century USS Jenolan and the 24th century USS Nash are standard examples of Federation transport vessels, Sydney class in their case, conducting transports to the Norpin colony & DS9/Bajor respectively

Bradbury class & Erewon class starships were also used in the 24th century. The U.S.S. Bradbury conducting transports between Earth & Betazed

I would think someone at Quark's level of merchant would only just be able to finance having their own warp vessel, and if you think about it, he's been pretty successful. Otherwise, you'd need to be in a corporation or an agency of some type, but as has been stated, it's not entirely necessary, as transports are otherwise available

 

[Timo]

Re: Just how common is interstellar travel in the 24th century, really

1) posessing your own ship, however small, seems to be out of reach for most peoples private means (but not for the wealthy. Just how wealthy one has to be is not entirely clear. Would it be on the same level you'd need today to own your own aircraft ?)

For the 24th century, we do have a couple of datapoints. Quark's Treasure was said to be superfast - therefore, its owner might be privileged the same way the owner of a high-performance Maserati or Ferrari today is, without implying that ownership of a spacecraft is any less common than ownership of an automobile is today. Still, the aircraft ownership analogy might be better, with Quark having a supersonic jet against the dull Cessna Citations, Caravans and 178s of ordinary fliers.

There's also the traveling salesman/assassin whose ship blows up in "Improbable Cause"; Outrageous Okona who seems to have rigged a largish transport for single-pilot ops; Dirgo from "Final Mission" with his private shuttle; Jaglom Shrek from "Birthright" with a comparable interstellar craft; etc. None seem particularly wealthy, but all seem to do business with their vessels, even if only in the sense of moving themselves to where potential clients might be found.

Pure pleasure craft also exist, from the Hippie Kleinbus in Space craft from way back in "Way to Eden" (and perhaps also "Mudd's Women") to the opulent cruiser of Kivas Fajo in "The Most Toys". Should we still treat this as an aircraft analogy, with Fajo owning his private Boeing 737? Or should we adopt a naval analogy where pleasure craft can vary in size to even greater degree?

I'd go with the aircraft thing mainly because we have no "rowboat" or "small outboard" category in evidence around inhabited planets; there's very little "coastal" activity.

2) But, we do see a lot of (what looks like ) small-time traders and smugglers in ships. Although it is not always clear if the traders are also the owners of the ships, in some cases it is stated to be so. That could suggest that such ships could be in the financial reach of small (privately owned) companies.

Jaglom Shrek did not show any affiliation with even a moderately sized business - he just sold information, the gathering of which may have involved his private vessel but probably did not involve other people. Dirgo didn't appear to be operating his craft for his mining business, either, but instead was in such intimate relationship with it that its state of disrepair was deemed his personal fault.

I'd say the wealth required to purchase and operate a ship or craft is not excessive, but starts with some very moderate options. The above characters had their piston-engined aircraft; Quark had his superjet; and Fajo his 737. Okona flew an old DC-3; the Hippies hijacked dad's Learjet. And so forth.

3) Barring own ships, how does the average joe travel in space, if he travels at all ? (Assuming that starfleet vessels are as (in)accessible as a navy vessel is today).

There's the apparent slight difference that Starfleet personnel enjoy great access to Starfleet vessels: O'Brien can use a runabout for his holiday trip, say... Also, plenty of civilians are shown traveling on Starfleet Sydney transports to DS9, but that's probably because this disputed frontier enjoys no commercial services.

So, are there regular public transportation services between, say Earth and Vulcan ? Or do you have to contact a trader you know to book passage ?

We spend so little time in the tame heartlands of the UFP that it's damned difficult to tell. A bit farther out, though, small-time traders with their tramps can make a living, suggesting that well-established liners and packets are not competing with them.

Suppose I have a simple (non-starfleet) job on earth, with no special connections, and I'd like to have a holiday on Bajor, could I arrange that or would it be quite difficult ?

Bajor is probably Star Trek's Afghanistan in the early days of aviation: your best bet is military transport both because it's so far off the beaten path and there's unrest out there. There are more distant locations, but also more civilized ones (say, Australia), with civilian transport services.

That said, Vash obtained transport from Bajor in "Q-Less", even having the choice of multiple options (Sisko, Q and Quark all promised to help her out, and it seems she eventually took a commercial flight). I guess you could do it in reverse, too, as Bajor and the Gamma connection would create commercial interest and you would have many co-travelers. It's just that we never explicitly see a civilian passenger transport; there are some Bajoran vessels that appear to be simple Bajor-to-DS9 shuttles, and then various commercial freight haulers that take passengers such as in "A Man Alone". But perhaps it's commercially unviable not to haul cargo along with paying passengers?

The 23rd century USS Jenolan and the 24th century USS Nash are standard examples of Federation transport vessels, Sydney class in their case, conducting transports to the Norpin colony & DS9/Bajor respectively

Bradbury class & Erewon class starships were also used in the 24th century. The U.S.S. Bradbury conducting transports between Earth & Betazed

The others have the USS prefix and two of them also the Starfleet pennant paint to establish them as military vessels; the "Erewhon class" Santa Maria was supposedly a colony-founding vessel. I doubt they do much civilian transporting.

Think about how pilots licenses are pretty rare even still, now assume that we're talking about travel across oceans and that the planes themselves need a high level of maintenance and crew skills to use.

If you aren't constantly being fired upon, threatened by gods, or dunking through wormholes, like Starfleet does, I think you could rely on automation a lot. What skill would actually be involved in telling a vessel to go from A to B? Probably not much, even if you want her to take the scenic route.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[T'Girl]

Re: Just how common is interstellar travel in the 24th century, really

My inclination is to think that in the Federation, just about anyone CAN have an unarmed ship, but most people don't bother.

Somewhat like today where anyone CAN have a (unarmed) sport aircraft, or a private jet, but most people don't want the expense or trouble that comes with one. In the 24th century even a small warp shuttle would be pricey.

 

[wulfio]

Re: Just how common is interstellar travel in the 24th century, really

I equate it to owning an aircraft. Governments and large corporations have the super fancy ones.

And individuals/small businesses(compared to your salvagers or whatever) can own smaller craft like the cessna's, beechcraft, or the old lockhead constellations. Basically propeller craft that is affordable.

But if you're not rich, or it's not your livelihood, then it makes no sense to have one.

 

[Mojochi]

Re: Just how common is interstellar travel in the 24th century, really

Oh yeah, I forgot about Fajo. I seem to remember Dirgo & Okona's ships being sub-light speed

Anyway, I too sort of equate warp capable vessels to that of modern aircraft ownership, especially considering how varied warp tech & capabilities are. For example, Fajo's freighter was only a maximum warp 3 vessel. Non-light speed vessels might be more like modern boats, where lots of people might own variants of them for any number of reasons

 

[MacLeod]

Re: Just how common is interstellar travel in the 24th century, really

Haven't star liners been mentioned/hinted at in ST, akin to ocean liners of today.

 

[Finn]

Re: Just how common is interstellar travel in the 24th century, really

Worf's mother was able to get a shuttle as it was commonplace. And Harry Kim visited a colony as a kid (as part of an program), also in a tone that implied interstellar travel weren't unusual for everyday citizens of the Federation.

 

[Metryq]

Re: Just how common is interstellar travel in the 24th century, really

I know there are laws and patrols, etc. but interstellar space is very vast. Once the technology got to the point where private citizens could afford interstellar travel, it would be virtually impossible to enforce the Prime Directive and other laws—especially since there are some (like the space hippies in "The Way To Eden") who do not "recognize" authority.

"The guilty party has his choice. Death by electrocution, death by gas, death by phaser, death by hanging—"

 

[T'Girl]

Re: Just how common is interstellar travel in the 24th century, really

Once the technology got to the point where private citizens could afford interstellar travel, it would be virtually impossible to enforce the Prime Directive and other laws

Transponder integrated into the warp drive, disconnected it and the whole system goes down. Civilian ships are required to stick to established routes between advanced star systems. Harry Mudd was off the beaten track and got chased.

Just an idea.

Haven't star liners been mentioned/hinted at in ST, akin to ocean liners of today.

The Conscience of the King for one.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Re: Just how common is interstellar travel in the 24th century, really

I know there are laws and patrols, etc. but interstellar space is very vast. Once the technology got to the point where private citizens could afford interstellar travel, it would be virtually impossible to enforce the Prime Directive and other laws—especially since there are some (like the space hippies in "The Way To Eden") who do not "recognize" authority.

"The guilty party has his choice. Death by electrocution, death by gas, death by phaser, death by hanging—"

Isn't the Prime Directive a Starfleet regulation? That wouldn't apply to civilians.

 

[Timo]

Re: Just how common is interstellar travel in the 24th century, really

The jury is out on that. In "Angel One", the fact that the Odin was "not a starship" released her crew from (seemingly any and all) PD obligations, say. But then we have "Bread and Circuses" where the civilian captain Merrick is considered bound by the PD.

In the end, "Bread and Circuses" is our only solid case of the PD applying to a civilian, though. It might well be that Kirk was flat out lying to the natives about Merrick being subject to the PD, simply because Kirk wanted the villain caught.

Note that these TNG and TOS episodes describe essentially the same scenario: Federation civilians end up on a planet by accident, and deliberately start influencing local affairs for their own gain. In TNG, they are not only allowed to do so - Starfleet is forbidden from stopping them. In TOS, Kirk claims he's not just entitled but also obligated to stop Merrick.

Is this because the TNG influence is according to UFP ideals, while the TOS influence is dastardly? Does that hold up in court, or are our heroes perverting law in the name of justice in one or both cases?

Whatever the answer, the practical aspect here is that the Merricks and Ramseys of the Federation simply cannot be stopped, not until they have done major damage. Space is way too big for that, and clearly the government doesn't preempt these offenses by stopping Merrick or Ramsey from sailing out in the first place.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[MacLeod]

Re: Just how common is interstellar travel in the 24th century, really

The difference might be down to something as simple as to where the ship was registered. If it was Federation registered it might have to be abide by certain restrictions i.e following the PD. BUt if it was registered to an independant world then they might not be tied to what every restrictions the Federation wanted to apply.

 

[T'Girl]

Re: Just how common is interstellar travel in the 24th century, really

The two incident are separated by several decades, the PD might have been amended.

Another possibility is the Merrick was once a cadet at Starfleet Academy, and might have sworn an oath to up hold the PD shortly after entry, and while he was discharged back into civilian life, the oath is binding for life.

 

[MacLeod]

Re: Just how common is interstellar travel in the 24th century, really

I'm sure we can come up with any number of reasons for the differences.