Not crazy, no loss of reality. There's no evidence of either. Tuvok used a holographic wife to get through his mating crisis, and no one concludes that about him.
Just how bad is Janeway, Captain wise?
- Thread starter Shintaek
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Exactly. Janeway was actually aware of and concerned about her attachment to Michael, yet was reassured by both the doctor and Chakotay that this sort of activity was an "acceptable outlet" for someone in her position. And, obviously, Michael wasn't her "primary support companion," since she sought input from at least two members of her senior staff about him. I'd say he was probably more of a walking, talking vibrator that could play rings.
No joke. I say let's all go over to the ENT forum and start posting repeatedly on multiple threads about how Archer was out of line when he "almost" killed that guy, should have been relieved of duty, should have been prosecuted and sent to prison for attempted murder, and was obviously just a "bad" captain all around.
Turn about is fair play, so they say, but . . . on the other hand, unlike some fans, I really don't get my kicks out of labeling characters based on one or two scenes out of four long years of episodes, nor do I enjoy stirring up "controversy" on the ENT forum (or any other forum, for that matter) just for the fun of it. For one thing, I probably should watch ALL of the ENT episodes before I do that, which I'm not about to do, and then . . . I'm just not that petty.
In Endgame where is Tuvok when we first see him?
In the mental health care hospice, he is.
Admiral Janeway throughout that episode is also plainly insane.
Since Voyager, she's done Tea at Five, Our Leading Lady, Iphigenia 2.0 (for which she won an Obie) and now Equus on the stage. She's also done The Black Donnellys, which wasn't a bad show. Hardly a career down the drain. She's also done lots of work in support of Alzheimer's.
In Endgame where is Tuvok when we first see him?
In the mental health care hospice, he is.
Admiral Janeway throughout that episode is also plainly insane.
Now jou're just doing a syllogism. (I expected more rigour from you.) "Tuvok is insane in the future*. Tuvok used a holographic mate. Hence using the holodeck to satisfy one's libido is proof of insanity."
Man, they all do it in Star Trek! They just don't advertise it. What is more crazy about a holo-lover than a moment of imagination-fueled masturbation? Not everybody has the luxury of having an emotional connection with a real partner. Fantasy can be a big part of what keeps somebody from depressing. Having a rich imagination or an effective suspention of disbelief is not yet considered insane, to my knowledge. Or half of humanity is.
And, do you have a phD in psychiatry, for being that categorical? You've accustomed us to better shoring up of your arguments.
I consider myself sane and I would have gotten lost in that relationship much more than she did. Especially when it turns out that a hologram can turn into an actual person, like the Doctor. There's a big debate on the status of holograms. In the possible epilogue we can see in another episode, the Doc is married to a real person. People are surprised, but not shocked.
*due to an illness that developed over many years, by the way.
In Endgame where is Tuvok when we first see him?
In the mental health care hospice, he is.
Admiral Janeway throughout that episode is also plainly insane.
Now jou're just doing a syllogism. (I expected more rigour from you.) "Tuvok is insane in the future*. Tuvok used a holographic mate. Hence using the holodeck to satisfy one's libido is proof of insanity."
Man, they all do it in Star Trek! They just don't advertise it. What is more crazy about a holo-lover than a moment of imagination-fueled masturbation? Not everybody has the luxury of having an emotional connection with a real partner. Fantasy can be a big part of what keeps somebody from depressing. Having a rich imagination or an effective suspention of disbelief is not yet considered insane, to my knowledge. Or half of humanity is.
And, do you have a phD in psychiatry, for being that categorical? You've accustomed us to better shoring up of your arguments.
I consider myself sane and I would have gotten lost in that relationship much more than she did. Especially when it turns out that a hologram can turn into an actual person, like the Doctor. There's a big debate on the status of holograms. In the possible epilogue we can see in another episode, the Doc is married to a real person. People are surprised, but not shocked.
*due to an illness that developed over many years, by the way.
No I do not have a degree in psychiatry. The statement was that Tuvok was not going insane. The screen evidence was that as shown in one timeline he did go insane. Cause was indeterminant, but the insdanity was quite apparent.
The untreated Tuvok's mental illness was a combination of prolonged isolation from his own people and an organic disorder. QED,
Janeway's insanity was behavioral. Too many times we saw her make decisions that were based on her own prejudice or upon her own bias that plainly shows she has no firm grasp on proportionate behavior.
Trying to steal Borg technology? Reprimanding her own officers when they tried to BUY technology? Its okay to steal, but you are ready to brig someone for cutting an under the table deal?
How about her whacky dealings with Tom Paris? One tome hye pulls a minor infraction [disobeying a relatively minor direct order] and he's demoted to "scullery boy". Next time he almost wrecks the ship and its "Tom, you disappoint me." No measured proportionate response. You have to wonder about Janeway's mental balance.
The Janeway we see in the Hiolodeck with Leonardo isn't exactly the dominant personality we see in the Captain's chair. She is a B personality to Leonardo's A. Why?
I can continue to catalog, but the point is that if she needs fellow companionship for her mantal health, get a REAL dog, not a squeeze doll made out of photons.
You need to keep a sense of REALITY.
Current example: how do you develop Human empathy in a generation of video-gamers who play murder games and cannot connect the act of murder which they commit in the game with the real cost of murder in the real world?
The lines between fantasy and reality blur in the Star Trek universe of the 24th Century. I can argue holodeck addiction and tie it in as part of the mental illness I observe.
Its not just Janeway who exhibits this emotional and rational disconnect between act and consequence. I think its a problem the Feds would have to address in Starfleet in general.
It may not be the perfect time, but I've been meaning to say this.
Star Trek belongs in Star Trek, not in the real world. I think we cannot completely judge Star Trek scenarios in terms of the real world. Not to mention it's supposed to be the future. So we should stay away from absolutes and decrees and excessive severity.
The characters would scream, "I'm not bad, I'm just written that way".
As for inconsistencies... we're all aware of that multi-episode, multi-writer plight.
Let's also not take character actions/behaviour/decisions out of context. (This is for you, bintak. I believe that some of the things that shock you are explained by the imperatives of the chain of command and Starfleet rules... and just plain circumstances.)
I would like to quote the words of Enterprise forum moderator HopefulRomantic. I think we can all learn from them. (I know I should.)
(I Read that a moment ago in the Season 3 Trip: why not vengeful? thread - a thread closed after 2 pages for running around in circles. This thread, although it is now moving on a bit, has done it too and there have been times when I've hoped someone would save us from ourselves and close it. I guess it serves as a kind of quarantine for bad vibes.)
Star Trek belongs in Star Trek, not in the real world. I think we cannot completely judge Star Trek scenarios in terms of the real world. Not to mention it's supposed to be the future. So we should stay away from absolutes and decrees and excessive severity.
The characters would scream, "I'm not bad, I'm just written that way".
As for inconsistencies... we're all aware of that multi-episode, multi-writer plight.
Let's also not take character actions/behaviour/decisions out of context. (This is for you, bintak. I believe that some of the things that shock you are explained by the imperatives of the chain of command and Starfleet rules... and just plain circumstances.)
I would like to quote the words of Enterprise forum moderator HopefulRomantic. I think we can all learn from them. (I know I should.)
(I Read that a moment ago in the Season 3 Trip: why not vengeful? thread - a thread closed after 2 pages for running around in circles. This thread, although it is now moving on a bit, has done it too and there have been times when I've hoped someone would save us from ourselves and close it. I guess it serves as a kind of quarantine for bad vibes.)
Because people are full of contradictions. I can see why that escapes you, though. How does it feel to live in a bidimentional world?
And it doesn't take a very contradicted personality to be multi-faceted or needing to change roles once in a while. Being Leonardo's pupil is a good way for Kathryn Janeway to get away from the burden of constant command (year in, year out). Leonardo's hologram is constructed from historical documents, literature, and good sense. Why can't he be a well of science and wisdom? It's more recreational and interactive (thus constructive) than reading it from a bunch of books.
Janeway's being a fictional character does not keep her from being multi-faceted and a bit inconsistent in a reasonably credible way.
The photonic dog would be more economical.
And as long as one knows what's real and what's not, why deprive oneself of fantasy?
Besides, it's not like Janeway lets that story drag along.
Ever heard of catharsis? Most kids know the difference.
I have fantasies of violence but I wouldn't kill a fly. Actually, I leave flies to the spider that shares my desk lamp with me. A mutually beneficial arrangement. The other week, I spared one caterpillar from a house plant and fed it the damaged leaves. It is now a chrysalis. And I won't feed the butterfly to the spider! (A cobweb seldom stops butterflies anyway.)
..and now you'll think I'm the wacky serial killer from The Silence of the Lambs.
Yeah, well, it just reflects today's TV addicts. It's only a tiny minority for whom it's really a condition that needs treatment.
No, it's FICTION. Everybody gets away with it.
The screen evidence showed him mentally ill in Endgame. This is not his general state.
It's not plain. Janeway was not mentally ill.
Turn about is fair play, so they say, but . . . on the other hand, unlike some fans, I really don't get my kicks out of labeling characters based on one or two scenes out of four long years of episodes, nor do I enjoy stirring up "controversy" on the ENT forum (or any other forum, for that matter) just for the fun of it. For one thing, I probably should watch ALL of the ENT episodes before I do that, which I'm not about to do, and then . . . I'm just not that petty.
I've only seen a few of the episodes myself which is why I can't make a comparison between the two incidents. I gave the show a shot but when I realized my favorite character was Porthos decided I should give it up.
Cute dog though.
Capt Janeway Rocks,
However, she had made a few command decisions that have had me thinking, what is she thinking?? In "Prey" after the species 8472 escapes from the force field and attacks the Hirogen hunter, Seven transports them both to one of the five attacking Hirogen ships. Janeway gets all bent out of shape and orders Voyager to pursue them. Forgetting the fact that they can't go to warp, their weapon systems are shot and they would have been outnumbered 5 to 1...
When Janeway confronts Seven about she just killed a living being, Seven of Nine puts in quite succinctly "My lessons in learning to become more human would be pointless, if I were dead"...
However, she had made a few command decisions that have had me thinking, what is she thinking?? In "Prey" after the species 8472 escapes from the force field and attacks the Hirogen hunter, Seven transports them both to one of the five attacking Hirogen ships. Janeway gets all bent out of shape and orders Voyager to pursue them. Forgetting the fact that they can't go to warp, their weapon systems are shot and they would have been outnumbered 5 to 1...
When Janeway confronts Seven about she just killed a living being, Seven of Nine puts in quite succinctly "My lessons in learning to become more human would be pointless, if I were dead"...
