Just finished reading Full Circle...

[DigificWriter]

Janeway is in half of Full Circle, but, if sentiment(s) expressed in another thread related to the topic (in the Voyager forum) is any indication, there's a section of the Voyager fandom that are diametrically opposed to the Voyager 'relaunch' fiction because, in order to conform with Nemesis, it changed the status quo of Voyager and relegated Janeway to a supporting role for the period of time between the start of said fiction and her death.

I expressed this in the other thread, but I really don't understand this whole 'Voyager isn't Voyager without Janeway' sentiment, because it's complely anamalous and organic to the Voyager fandom (I haven't come across a single fan of DS9 - the first series to go forward in literary form without its on-screen captain/commanding officer - who is opposed to the DS9 post-finale fiction because it doesn't include Sisko), and haven't yet been given any form of explanation for why the sentiment exists.

Well, I'll try. Sisko was "disappeared" from DS9 in canon. Even so, Sisko was eventually restored to the novels. I suppose it was a necessity for the DS9 fans to accept that Sisko was absent for awhile (I'm not saying he was dead), and yet the editors/writers eventually restored him. Sisko's "death" in the finale was also respectful and even heroic, and, more importantly, it was the end of a long arc for him as the emissary. It was part of who he was and totally in character.

By contrast, Janeway was "killed" in the novels, and actually in a TNG novel, and was totally out of character as she "died" (yes, I have read portions of PD's novel). She was unrecognizable to me as the Janeway I'd watched for seven years on the screen, and I felt that the way she was treated was wrong for the captain and main character of the Voyager series. Add to that the paucity of Voyager novels over the years, and you might understand that I want to continue to read about her exploits because I like her and find her to be an essential element to Voyager.

Now, I'm not sure what you mean when you say that you don't understand "this whole 'Voyager isn't Voyager without Janeway' sentiment, because it's complely anamalous and organic to the Voyager fandom." How is that so? There was a terrible outcry when Spock died in the movies, so much so that he was immediately restored. Sisko was missed by the fans and returned to the novels. Trip was missed and almost immediately restored to the novels. Data has been restored to the comic books through B4. I don't understand what you mean by "anamalous and organic." Maybe you could explain that to me?

Finally, I think with Janeway's "death" there is an element of "gotcha" on the part of some fans that is very unseemly. They don't like Janeway and they enjoy turning the knife in the sides of the fans who do. To me, that's just unfair. No one gloated when Jadzia or Tasha died--"haha, she's dead, live with it." No one was happy when Sisko "died" or Data was destroyed. Everyone mourned Spock's death. Perhaps you can explain this "gotcha" reaction as well?

I haven't read any of the DS9 novels set after Unity (the novel in which Sisko returns from the Wormhole), but, based on that novel and Sisko's role in it, I would be extremely surprised if he was anything other than a supporting/tertiary character (which is the exact same role that Janeway plays during the portions of Full Circle in which she appears and which are set prior to her death).

Regarding my statement concerning my lack of understanding about why there's a section of the Voyager fandom that feels that Janeway must be present in order for Voyager stories to actually be Voyager stories, I don't know how I can explain it any clearer or more succintly than I did in that other thread, but I'll reiterate my point here. DS9 fans lost their captain as well, and yet, as noted in the other thread, I have not come across a single fan of that season who feels the way that you and others do about Voyager and Janeway (i.e. 'DS9 isn't DS9 without Sisko'), both prior to and after his return in Unity.

I am an admitted Janeway fan, and recognize that she became very central to Voyager's storytelling; however, as I stated in that other thread, I never saw her as being the 'be all/end all' of that series, nor do I see her that way now.

I'm going to leave out discussing the exact situation in which Janeway was KIA and whether or not it was mishandled, due to the fact that I haven't yet had the opportunity to read Before Dishonor and come to a conclusion myself regarding how Peter David handled her death, but I do think that there's a very fine line between objecting to something and and coming out so strongly against said thing that you become obsessive, which is the feeling I have gotten from comments you and others have made with regards to Janeway's removal from her centralized role in the Voyager fiction, and her eventual death as chronicled in Before Dishorn (which, as noted in the other thread, I see as two separate issues).

I'm not going to comment on whether or not there's a 'gotcha' reaction on the part of some Trek fans (Voyager or otherwise) with regards to Janeway's death, but would like to say that maybe you and others who feel passionately about Janeway being involved in anything relating to Voyager ought to take a look at the possibility of the fervor with which you exprss your opinion(s) having given rise to such a reaction from those who do not share that opinion(s).

Finally, I'd like to address your point concerning the difference between Sisko's removal from his central role in the DS9 narrative and Janeway's removal from her central role in the Voyager narrative:

The fact that Janeway was KIA in the novels -which are non-canon - makes this idea that 'Voyager isn't Voyager without Janeway' even more baffling to me, because I see a very obvious solution to it: if you want Voyager with Janeway, just go watch the canon and ignore the novels. The editors and writers of the post-finale Voyager fiction have tried to make the series' narrative evolve, and have chosen to do so without Janeway occupying a centralized role (although that is something that wasn't entirely in their control, given that the canon of Star Trek Nemesis made her an Admiral and gave her a desk job). The fact that she was KIA ultimately has no effect on that decision, as it was made prior to her death in Before Dishonor, which is indicated by the fact that she is very much a supporting character in those portions of Full Circle in which she appears and which are chronologically set prior to her death.

 

[Kataaran]

The fact that Janeway was KIA in the novels -which are non-canon - makes this idea that 'Voyager isn't Voyager without Janeway' even more baffling to me, because I see a very obvious solution to it: if you want Voyager with Janeway, just go watch the canon and ignore the novels...

Whilst I'm happy to rewatch the show it's far nicer to read new stories. Since we're highly unlikely to get any more canon stories in any of the 24th century Star Trek series the books have taken over where canon was left off for me.

 

[JB2005]

I'd imagine in a few years (The Voyager 20th or 25th anniversary) we'll get another anthology of short stories?

 

[AuntKate]

Perhaps you can explain this "gotcha" reaction as well?

I honestly don't see that at all. No character is universally loved or hated. The Janeway fans seem to have a hard time with the fact that not everyone loves the character and there are people that have no issues with Voyager going on without her.

If I had the time to scan the older threads, I could come up with a wealth of examples, but why bother? Some of them had hundreds of posts. If you have been here and conscious, you know that people who bemoan her death have been labeled "militant Janeway fans," have been called whiners and worse for voicing their preference to have Janeway restored to the books, have been criticized for "bringing this up again," and so on. There were signatures and avatars that lorded the fact that Janeway was dead (since replaced, unfortunately, so I can't prove it). I don't care whether everyone loves Janeway or not--that is not the issue. Why ridicule the fans who do love her? That's the question. And don't tell me it's because we are too vocal about it. Don't read my posts if you're tired of it. I've certainly stopped reading posts of others who seem to have great sport needling Janeway fans about her death.

 

[Warp Coil]

As someone who suffered through all seven seasons of VOY on-screen and was utterly disappointed with the series, and as someone who is not fond of Christie Golden's writing style and creative direction in the earlier VOY relaunch novels, I have to say that what Kirsten Beyer accomplished with Full Circle was remarkable. I was very irritated and disappointed at the lack of true ensemble and balance between the characters on VOY, particularly in the later seasons when the writers chose to focus on the Janeway/Seven/Doctor trio while ignoring everyone else. I was also frustrated by the lack of real character depth and development, as well as the lack of continuity or lasting consequences from episode to episode. The show was just too episodic, too safe, too repetitive, and, frankly, too dull. I never cared about the VOY characters too much. They didn't grip me. I didn't find them all that interesting. And since so many of them didn't develop much over 7 seasons, they never changed to become interesting.

The creative direction taken in the first four VOY relaunch novels didn't do much to change my opinion, either. I had pretty much written VOY off as a series that I didn't need to pay any attention to, and given the lack of new VOY relaunch novels over the past few years, it was easy to ignore. I originally had no intention of reading Full Circle, though I admit that I was at least curious to see what a new author would do to rejuvinate the series. Once the book was released and so many of the reviews were positive, I considered that perhaps I should give it a try. I am glad I did. I was pleasantly shocked to find the VOY characters written as more complex, 3-dimensional people. The novel did a great job wrapping up Golden's previous plots, addressing other story threads that had been depicted in other Trek novels, and then launching new stories and sending the series off in an interesting, new direction. Now, I can understand why some fans might be displeased with the fate of certain VOY characters. However, I find myself very happy with the current crew. There are still a lot of original VOY characters in the books, along with new ones. I would say it's no more dramatic than what has happened in both the DS9 and TNG relaunch novels.

Full Circle and its follow-up, Unworthy, are truly fantastic. Not only are they well-written, but they have done something that no one else has managed to do successfully: make me give a damn about these characters. I find that to be pretty impressive. I am eagerly awaiting Children of the Storm.

 

[AuntKate]

I'm looking forward to reading them one of these days.

 

[label]

Full Circle and its follow-up, Unworthy, are truly fantastic. Not only are they well-written, but they have done something that no one else has managed to do successfully: make me give a damn about these characters. I find that to be pretty impressive. I am eagerly awaiting Children of the Storm.

Given that I agreed with 100% of everything you said about Voyager, I find this assessment of the current state of Voyager literature to be very exciting. Can't wait to get caught up and read Kristin's stuff as it sounds very good.

 

[Steve Roby]

^ It would be interesting to see what percentage of Voyager relaunch fans liked the original show. Also, fans of the show from the outset and how they get on with the relaunch.

I wanted to be a Voyager fan. I've been a Star Trek fan since the early '70s. I liked TOS, TAS, the movies, TNG, and DS9. I liked all the setup for the show in episodes of TNG and DS9. I thought the premise was interesting, it was high time we had a series with a woman as captain, and some of the other characters looked interesting, too -- Tuvok, for instance, our first fully Vulcan regular character.

But the setup was squandered, the characters went in odd directions, the premise was largely ignored, and we got too many episodes about the Kazon early on and too many about the Borg later on... there were some pretty good episodes once in a while, but if Voyager had been an original series with no connection to Star Trek, I probably would have quit watching well before the first season was over. As it is, there's still at least a dozen or so episodes I taped and haven't watched yet.

Obviously, people who love Voyager will see things very differently, but as far as I'm concerned, TPTB failed me with this series. I'm a fan of what Voyager could have been, if it had been better written, better thought through, and if it had been what they told us it would be. And that's why I looked forward to the Voyager novels. Not just the relaunch novels, but the ones published while the show was still on the air. They weren't all classics, and some were flat-out awful, but some of them delivered something closer to what I was looking for. Golden's relaunch books, on the other hand, gave me everything I didn't like about the TV series. Beyer's books, IMHO, went much deeper into Voyager, taking its concepts and characters seriously and digging into them for all they were worth, stress-testing the hell out of Voyager as a series and bringing it through triumphant.

If anyone wants to use this as evidence for an argument that the current books are Voyager for people who don't like Voyager, well, frankly, I don't think I'm a representative sample to generalize from. But I'm also reminded of the TV series Torchwood. There are a lot of people who disliked or were disappointed by that show's first two seasons but were impressed by the Children of Earth miniseries, which not only wiped out almost every vestige of the series' status quo, it killed off another of the show's small group of regulars. Some of the people who liked Torchwood before Children of Earth hated the latter. As for me, while I recognized that there were some flaws in Torchwood, I was hooked from the beginning. I really enjoyed those first two seasons. And Children of Earth just blew me away. Point being: there's no reason to assume that people who liked or even loved Voyager can't love the current books every bit as much or more.

 

[JD]

I'm with you there on Torchwood. TW has been one of my favorite shows from the first time I saw it, and I thought CoE was the best part of the series.
As for Voyager, I loved the show, and I love the Relaunch just as much.

 

[Shon T'Hara]

I think that's the key difference for a fair few Voyager fans, part of what drew me to Voyager was that it had a strong, intelligent, female character, with that potentially gone (haven't formed an opinion about Eden yet) what made Voyager stand out for me is also gone.

The books still have B'elanna and Seven. What makes Janeway better than them?

 

[BillJ]

I think that's the key difference for a fair few Voyager fans, part of what drew me to Voyager was that it had a strong, intelligent, female character, with that potentially gone (haven't formed an opinion about Eden yet) what made Voyager stand out for me is also gone.

The books still have B'elanna and Seven. What makes Janeway better than them?

That is the question!

 

[DigificWriter]

I think that's the key difference for a fair few Voyager fans, part of what drew me to Voyager was that it had a strong, intelligent, female character, with that potentially gone (haven't formed an opinion about Eden yet) what made Voyager stand out for me is also gone.

The books still have B'elanna and Seven. What makes Janeway better than them?

They also still had Janeway until at least halfway through Full Circle (assuming that she is present in the Spirit Walk duology, which I can't personally verify given that I haven't read those two books), albeit in a supporting role.

 

[captcalhoun]

for me, Voyager ceases to be Voyager when it no longer features at least 4 TV characters and - most critically - the starship Voyager.

Janeway's presence or lackof is not a requirement to make it Voyager.

in fact, i'd also say, what makes Voyager is it being set in the Delta Quadrant. the idea of taking the ship back out there deliberately is frankly brilliant. as far as i was concerned, once the ship came home, the story was done. but sending them back to follow up on things and to explore more is true Star Trek and true to Voyager.

 

[DigificWriter]

I'm much more lenient when it comes to what makes or breaks a Voyager story; what I want out of my Voyager storytelling is something that feels organic and consistent with other material related to Voyager, and I feel that the post-finale fiction definitely delivers on that score. Having the majority of Voyager's final main cast of characters involved is certainly nice, but it's not really a 'requirement' for me, nor is the ship being in/going back to the Delta Quadrant.

BTW and for the record, the post-finale Voyager fiction has retained more of its final main cast than its 24th Century counterparts (DS9 and TNG), having only truly lost/moved on without Janeway and Tuvok (Neelix was also absent, but returned in a supporting role in Full Circle and Unworthy).

 

[Kataaran]

The books still have B'elanna and Seven. What makes Janeway better than them?

I always saw those characters as supporting roles, even though Seven was concentrated on fairly heavily in the latter seasons. It's pretty subjective really, can't give a definitive, logical reason. Just personal preference I guess.

On a side note, I just finished reading Unworthy, I can't deny it's a good read but I desperately miss my fave character. Ah well.

 

[JB2005]

^ The problem with Voyager, IMHO, is that all the characters were all (in theory) main cast rather than characters whose only function was to support the power trio...

 

[DigificWriter]

I always saw those characters as supporting roles, even though Seven was concentrated on fairly heavily in the latter seasons. It's pretty subjective really, can't give a definitive, logical reason. Just personal preference I guess.

I've said this before, but I'd like to reiterate it: Voyager's original series bible specified that the series was meant to be an ensemble piece. Even though that changed somewhat once the series got underway, it didn't change to nearly the degree that you seem to think that it did; even though the writers came to focus on Janeway, Seven, and the Doctor moreso than any of the other characters, that in no way 'reduces' said characters to 'supporting roles'.

 

[JB2005]

^ And therein lies the problem...