Journey to Babel: little question

[Masao]

What's always bothered me about this episode is Kirk's fight with the fake Andorian. I had thought that showing the fight already in progress was because of a syndication cut. But the DVDs show this is not the case. I wonder if part of the scene (Kirk being stalked and attacked) was scripted but not shot or what.

 

[NiteTrek]

The smoke/vapor was clearly there with intent, whether it was meant to be smoke or cryo vapor may be debatable, but it was not an accident.

Can someone please post some screenshots? It's been awhile since I've seen the episode and don't really remember any smoke during that scene.

 

[Brian]

I looked at the caps of the surgery at TrekCore. The smoke wasn't clearly depicted in any of them. Maybe there's a hint of it in this one (just to the left of McCoy), click to enlarge:

 

[Maurice]

What's always bothered me about this episode is Kirk's fight with the fake Andorian. I had thought that showing the fight already in progress was because of a syndication cut. But the DVDs show this is not the case. I wonder if part of the scene (Kirk being stalked and attacked) was scripted but not shot or what.

You can actually see the unused start of the fight of Kirk and Thelev from Journey to Babel in this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6GWqrpneAo

The bit in question starts at 1:54. They cut only a few seconds, most likely because there is a crewman walking away in the background, which begs the question why he doesn't come back and help.

BTW, the corridor Thelev leaps out of is actually Kirk's bathroom. They pulled out the corridor wall there and put another wall piece in there to make a corridor. You can see the two doors to Kirk's quarters right down from it.

 

[Outpost4]

The smoke/vapor was clearly there with intent, whether it was meant to be smoke or cry vapor may be debatable, but it was not an accident.

Can someone please post some screen shots? It's been awhile since I've seen the episode and don't really remember any smoke during that scene.

My DVDs are packed away and will be for at least a week, so I'm no help. In any case, there isn't much smoke. That's one reason I always assumed it was accidental, and being an old smoker myself, was that it looked like the smoke from a cigarette. I have to admit that alchemist's conjecture that it is a stage light smoking probably makes more sense.

I appreciate Brian's outrage for not considering Kelley's professionalism, but if it was his cigarette, he could have well thought it to be out of frame. What's out of frame doesn't exist. He also might have thought it was extinguished and it wasn't.

If accidental smoke from whatever source did creep into the frame, it's not unprecedented. Don't forget stage lights in space!

 

[Christopher]

What's always bothered me about this episode is Kirk's fight with the fake Andorian. I had thought that showing the fight already in progress was because of a syndication cut. But the DVDs show this is not the case. I wonder if part of the scene (Kirk being stalked and attacked) was scripted but not shot or what.

There's usually a lot that gets shot but has to be cut for time. That was probably the case here.

 

[Maurice]

What's always bothered me about this episode is Kirk's fight with the fake Andorian. I had thought that showing the fight already in progress was because of a syndication cut. But the DVDs show this is not the case. I wonder if part of the scene (Kirk being stalked and attacked) was scripted but not shot or what.

There's usually a lot that gets shot but has to be cut for time. That was probably the case here.

Except that it isn't. As in the link I put above, they cut only a few seconds, probably because of background action.

 

[Timo]

The issue of Kirk not knowing about Spock's parents is a thorny one. Remember that he doesn't know much about Spock's family at any timepoint: he has no idea about the bethrothal to T'Pring - or about the existence of Sybok, decades later.

Much of this must be attributed to Spock's secretive nature. Remember that he essentially eloped to Starfleet against his father's wishes. His rare enrolling might have been treated with such glee that he was granted the Foreign Legion treatment: no questions asked. He certainly didn't confide in his crewmates - he kept talking about his parents in the past tense until confronted with the fact that they were still alive and making themselves known to his crewmates. He could have developed an extensive net of lies about his shameful family background, all under the classic Vulcan pretense of "we never lie".

If Spock indeed joined under a Foreign Legion clause, it could be that Kirk would be handed a very incomplete personnel sheet. He couldn't complain much, either: he would have inherited Spock from Pike, not handpicked the officer himself (like other Starfleet captains have been shown doing, in contrast with real-world practices). Heck, Starfleet probably forced the experienced Spock on the young Kirk, mindful of their precious starship...

On a related note, Kirk didn't know that Chekov was an only child. Whether he would have been aware of McCoy's daughter and failed marriage in the original version of "Way to Eden", I don't know... The existence of Sulu's daughter isn't really a surprise for him in ST:GEN, but does accentuate the fact that he doesn't closely follow the family lives of his officers.

Assorted nitpicks:

We already know that Kirk is aware Spock’s mother is human and that his father is a Vulcan ambassador because Kirk taunted him with it in This Side of Paradise.

As said, Spock always implied they were dead, including in this episode - and Kirk speaks of them in the past tense here, too.

Also, Kirk does not know these things in "This Side of Paradise". He learns them from Spock during that scene. Arguably, he should retain the knowledge in "Amok Time" and "Journey to Babel" (which both have later stardates) - but for all he knew, Spock's dad as of "Journey to Babel" was a former Ambassador, now decomposing in some rocky grave on Vulcan.

Unless I am way off base, it is not standard Vulcan procedure for an ambassador to marry a human woman and have a hybrid child. It’s safe to say Sarek is the only one who did this at this point.

All the more reason to hide this shameful incident of zoophilia from the interstellar public...

Although we could argue that one of the prerequisites for becoming an interstellar Ambassador is to marry an alien.

Yet, he still breaks protocol and – in front of a dozen guards and the newly arrived ambassador – loudly asks Spock if he wants to go down and visit mommy and daddy. Forget that it’s Spock, how is asking this proper behavior toward ANYONE in this situation?

Umm, it wouldn't be a breach of protocol at all in case of a human underling - it would be courtesy when the CO offered personal leave to his trusted officer, and all the more so when the CO made his trust on the officer so openly known.

And I beg to differ - Kirk has never shown any particular understanding towards Spock's need for personal secrecy. He brings out the pliers in "Amok Time" when McCoy is ready to stay with the velvet gloves. He confronts Spock's Vulcan ways basically as often as McCoy does, although he doesn't have to stoop to arguments because his word is final. And yes, he likes to make an ass of Spock on the bridge at the end of virtually every episode...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Forbin]

There was nothing "unprofessional" about an actor smoking between takes in 1967, nor ducking his cig out of frame when they rolled. There may have even been an ashtray on the table right in front of him, as long as it was out of shot. Nobody cared back then.

 

[Ssosmcin]

You make solid arguments, Timo.

I can see why Chekov's "only child" would slip Kirk's mind over Spock's parentage: Chekov was one of many humans who weren't his close personal friend and who had pretty much "normal" backgrounds. Spock is the only Vulcan on board (only alien as far as we know), that alone would make his personnel file more interesting to read, particularly since his father is a Vulcan ambassador with a human wife. Considering that no one was freaked out when they saw Amanda could imply that Sarek's marraige wasn't a secret. And Sarek never seemed like the type to marry a woman and then hide the fact that she's human. Quite the opposite and this probably made the news rather than been squashed. Spock's hybrid nature was strange enough to everyone to make it the first of it's kind. Something like that is monumental and unites two alien species.

I honestly can't see Kirk not being privy to Spock's past or that Starfleet would act like the foreign legion when Spock showed up. Just the opposite, they probably knew who he was, considering his background, and was thrilled. While Spock would not use his father's position to help in his entry into the service, and even if Starfleet wasn't aware of his parentage, Spock's agreement to commit to the service would require him to fill out the proper forms. Under family or next of kin, Spock would most likely put in the information requested. Even if Kirk was "stuck with Spock", Spock's dossier would be made available to him. Having incomplete background information on your second in command is unwise at best, deadly at worst.

I see your point about Spock's privacy being plied open, but in Amok Time, Spock was in danger of dying. The need for an explanation which would impact the entire crew and the urge to save his friend put Kirk in that position. A lot different than being loudly personal to a private person of a private race in front of the Vulcan Ambassador. I would think restraint would be common sense in this case, out of respect to the Ambassador and Vulcan preferences.

As for it being a courtesy for the CO to grant leave, yes, I agree it would be. But the time and place and the manner seemed inappropriate to me. Again, if we weren't talking about a high dignitary being right there, none of this would bug me.

T'Pring being a secret is no biggie if Spock didn't consider it much beyond a family arrangement and it never really came up before. And since she is tied to the whole Pon Far thingy, then Spock wasn't gonna spill.

Also, Kirk does not know these things in "This Side of Paradise". He learns them from Spock during that scene.

Well, all we really know is that we learned this at that point. Kirk may have learned it then or maybe he always knew. Just because we learned it then doesn't mean that was when Kirk did. But, it is debatable.

This is fun. :-)

 

[cooleddie74]

SCOTTY:"Can ye please do somethin' about the bloody overhead lights, Captain?

The cloaked Romulan boom mikes...they're one thing. But this is gettin' ridiculous! I cannae do me job under these conditions!!"

 

[Mandra]

- but for all he knew, Spock's dad as of "Journey to Babel" was a former Ambassador, now decomposing in some rocky grave on Vulcan.

If Kirk thought that Spock's parents were dead, why would he ask if Spock wanted to visit them?

 

[cooleddie74]

- but for all he knew, Spock's dad as of "Journey to Babel" was a former Ambassador, now decomposing in some rocky grave on Vulcan.

If Kirk thought that Spock's parents were dead, why would he ask if Spock wanted to visit them?

I was suprised that the visit to Vulcan for the koon-ut-kalifee in "Amok Time" didn't reveal who Spock's parents really were. But I suppose Sarek and Amanda needn't be present for such a ceremony under such circumstances. Maybe Sarek was off-world on Earth for Federation Council meetings at the time, and Amanda knew her son would prefer her to keep a low or nonexistent profile during his time of emotional and biological turmoil?

 

[Timo]

If Kirk thought that Spock's parents were dead, why would he ask if Spock wanted to visit them?

Umm... Good point.

Well, all we really know is that we learned this at that point. Kirk may have learned it then or maybe he always knew. Just because we learned it then doesn't mean that was when Kirk did. But, it is debatable.

This is about the only point where I feel I can successfully debate from the facts, instead of just making up excuses to preserve continuity. Alas, I'm probably arguing against myself...

Kirk makes two kinds of insults relating to Spock's heritage here: "Your father was a computer and your mother an encyclopedia!" doesn't show any familiarity with Spock's true parentage; and "Half-breed!", an insult Kirk already used in "What Are Little Girls Made Of?", fails to specify which of Spock's parents was of which species. It seems as if Kirk really doesn't know more than what Spock has already told him in the previous episodes - basically just that he is indeed a half-breed.

So let's assume Kirk really doesn't know anything beyond Spock's volunteered tidbits. It would make quite a bit of sense that Spock, just prior to "Journey to Babel", would feel obligated to divulge the fact that his parents are alive after all, and that his colleagues and friends have just been "misunderstanding" his previous statements on the issue. Spock would be in the slow and painful process of volunteering more, but time would run out on him, and he would be forced to confront his father while his captain still didn't know enough to avoid embarrassment.

Or, as it looks like, Spock would have manipulated the situation so that Kirk would have just enough facts to cause him to blurt out what he does. This maximally awkward moment would be a greater embarrassment to Sarek than to the emotionally hardened and braced Spock, and would humiliate the Ambassador at least as much as the captain - at least in the eyes of the captain, which would be Spock's aim. Spock would take sadistic delight in the briefest glimpse of guilt in his father's eyes, and could perhaps even hope for a situation where Sarek had to explain himself, or Spock could explain himself in front of Sarek.

Maybe Sarek was off-world on Earth for Federation Council meetings at the time, and Amanda knew her son would prefer her to keep a low or nonexistent profile during his time of emotional and biological turmoil?

Or maybe Sarek simply refused to meet his son, and Amanda was in no position to defy him?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Therin of Andor]

I didn't understand your feeling that the smoke was intentional. It would be nice if we knew one way or another but I guess that would be asking too much.

I'm betting it's also a stage direction in the script.

 

[GSchnitzer]

I didn't understand your feeling that the smoke was intentional. It would be nice if we knew one way or another but I guess that would be asking too much.

I'm betting it's also a stage direction in the script.

My Second Revised Final Draft of "Journey to Babel" (September 19, 1967) makes no reference to smoke/fog from the "cryosurgical frame" covering Ambassador Sarek's torso.

It doesn't appear to be a scripted requirement.

Greg Schnitzer
Star Trek Phase II

 

[Ssosmcin]

Well, all we really know is that we learned this at that point. Kirk may have learned it then or maybe he always knew. Just because we learned it then doesn't mean that was when Kirk did. But, it is debatable.

This is about the only point where I feel I can successfully debate from the facts, instead of just making up excuses to preserve continuity. Alas, I'm probably arguing against myself...

Kirk makes two kinds of insults relating to Spock's heritage here: "Your father was a computer and your mother an encyclopedia!" doesn't show any familiarity with Spock's true parentage; and "Half-breed!", an insult Kirk already used in "What Are Little Girls Made Of?", fails to specify which of Spock's parents was of which species. It seems as if Kirk really doesn't know more than what Spock has already told him in the previous episodes - basically just that he is indeed a half-breed.

From The Corbomite Maneuver:

SPOCK: "I regret not having learned more about this Balok. At times, he was reminiscent of my father."

SCOTTY: "Then may heaven have helped your mother."

SPOCK: "Quite the contrary. She considered herself a very fortunate Earth woman."

This was said for everyone on the bridge to hear.

Then, coupling this with the "my mother was a teacher, my father an ambassador" bit in Paradise and you have information to start putting two and two together. And Kirk, he's a pretty smart guy. It's safe to assume that Kirk - at the very least - knew which of his parents was human and which was Vulcan. It's also safe to assume that, after Paradise Syndrome, Kirk knew that Spock's Vulcan father was an ambassador.

So, that leaves the situation like this: Kirk greets the Vulcan ambassador. Since there could well be more than one, I'll allow that Kirk didn't assume this was Spock's father (considering the past tense of the references). Then, seconds later, Kirk meets Sarek's wife, who is obviously human.

Now, if Kirk were under a lot of stress and didn't immediately assume that these were, indeed, Spock's folks, then seeing them could have put the idea in his mind to suggest that Spock visit his family (i.e. "wow, human wife of a Vulcan ambassador, that reminds me. . ."). I mean, if one Vulcan can marry a human, maybe he thought (for a split second here) that Spock wasn't so unique after all.

I'm still not happy with Kirk blurting it out like that, but I I can accept that he's brain wasn't moving as fast as his mouth. And, just to be fair, maybe Kirk felt this would be the last time in the next could of hours he would have the chance to suggest it to Spock. Sarek requested another guide, and Kirk was going to show them around himself (rather than palm them off to Lt. Lipshitz), so he tossed out the suggestion while he had the chance.

I think I can actually be satisfied with this and I think it works better for the characters than the assumption that "Kirk don't know nuttin'" about his own XO.

Now there's an example of arguing against yourself. :-)
Wow, my brain hurts.

 

[Plum]

Weeell. Kirk has been a bit of a dick once in a while.

 

[Maurice]

I was suprised that the visit to Vulcan for the koon-ut-kalifee in "Amok Time" didn't reveal who Spock's parents really were. But I suppose Sarek and Amanda needn't be present for such a ceremony under such circumstances...

Or maybe it's because it's an alien culture that doesn't work like ours, and family isn't invited because the display of raw emotion at such times is considered in bad taste.

 

[cooleddie74]

I was suprised that the visit to Vulcan for the koon-ut-kalifee in "Amok Time" didn't reveal who Spock's parents really were. But I suppose Sarek and Amanda needn't be present for such a ceremony under such circumstances...

Or maybe it's because it's an alien culture that doesn't work like ours, and family isn't invited because the display of raw emotion at such times is considered in bad taste.

Plus, it is always possible Spock contacted one or both in private and asked them not to show up in ANY capacity or situation so as to prevent him from getting any special attention or treatment as the prominent son of a venerated ambassador.