Joss Whedon and the blurry line between homage and appropriation

[Nobody]

I might be more inclined to criticize Firefly for not including more Asian speaking roles if it had lasted more than 13 episodes. It's hard to judge the intent of the producer's with such a limited time frame. It's possible, given time, that more Asian characters would've been introduced. The lack of Asian actors for main characters is more telling, but with such a small time on the air, I'm willing to give it a pass. I'll be more interested in how it plays out on Dollhouse with it's very obvious Asian culture inspired designs. So far, the show is one-up on Firefly with the Sierra character.


-nobody

 

[Rii]

Where are you getting the idea that the populations of China and the United States were evacuated in their entirety or in proportion to their total populations?

Just conjecture, I admit. The explanation of the exodus from earth is extremely vague. But, even so, even if the population distribution was made equal--or even slightly skewed out of the Chinese's favor--Starship Polaris' point still stands:

Why, given their supposed dominance, not one Asian would happen at random to be part of this fairly randomly-assembled group of travelers always seemed to me to be a question that begged an explanation.

Oh, absolutely. For my part I think it was simply an idea developed in response to issues that could've been raised in its absence, however not itself being an essential ingredient in the story Whedon and co. wanted to tell it wasn't actively supported beyond those initial precepts. Given that Firefly was set not in an alternate universe but in our future, if the culture portrayed was derived exclusively from western influences many would be curious as to exactly what happened to everyone else.

Star Trek dodges the issue in part because we're seeing things almost exclusively through the eyes of Starfleet which, like most contemporary military and quasi-military institutions, tends towards its own particular monoculture.

Clear Whedon just hates Asian people. I think he killed an Asian guy once. Just to watch him die.

Gavin's death on Angel was rather gratuitous.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

Wow...a Whedon-bashing thread on TrekBBS...there's something you don't see every day...

 

[Cartoonist]

...Unless the lack of Asian people was eventually going to be explained. Maybe there was a genocide before the exodus from Earth.

Why would the genocidal culture seek to incorporate the cultural apparatus of their victims?

Two possibilities:

(1) They'd already incorporated Asian influences long before the genocide. There may have been peace for centuries before hatred flared, just as the Jews lived in Russia and Europe for centuries before the Pogroms and the Holocaust. At that point, there'd be no way to separate the Western influences from the Asian ones in their mixed culture. Current western cultures are a hodgepodge of influences from disparate peoples who used to be mortal enemies. You probably can't go a whole day without saying, eating or wearing things that were created by the British and other things that were created by the French, for instance.

(2) Westerners didn't dislike Asians, Western GOVERMENTS (that may or may not have been totalitarian by then) decided to eliminate Asians. So there'd be no reason for the average Westerner to want to reject Asian cultural influences.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

I rationalized that China got the better end of the Alliance and that the others we see most of the time in the series were those who got the short end. We don't see many Chinese fleeing the Alliance because they have the need.

A more sinister way of looking at it is how oppressive the government in China seems now and perhaps the series is actually symbolic of American idealistic values vs. that (not that we always live up to those ideals).

Mind you, I am not saying that is what Whedon necessarily had in mind but like I said my way to rationalize/interpret it. There are a number of possibilities of why there are so few Asians in the show and some are certainly more disparaging than others. It'd be interesting if any interviews ever broach this subject with the man who would know the answers.

 

[FordSVT]

I have to say the casting of Firefly was exceptional. There are few casts I have encountered with so much talent.

Summer Glau is one of the worst actresses I've seen come along in recent memory, but I do enjoy Nathan Fillion's acting. He's got a natural quality, unlike Glau who seems to have taken acting lessons in a graveyard.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

...Unless the lack of Asian people was eventually going to be explained. Maybe there was a genocide before the exodus from Earth.

Why would the genocidal culture seek to incorporate the cultural apparatus of their victims?

Two possibilities:

(1) They'd already incorporated Asian influences long before the genocide. There may have been peace for centuries before hatred flared, just as the Jews lived in Russia and Europe for centuries before the Pogroms and the Holocaust. At that point, there'd be no way to separate the Western influences from the Asian ones in their mixed culture. Current western cultures are a hodgepodge of influences from disparate peoples who used to be mortal enemies. You probably can't go a whole day without saying, eating or wearing things that were created by the British and other things that were created by the French, for instance.

(2) Westerners didn't dislike Asians, Western GOVERMENTS (that may or may not have been totalitarian by then) decided to eliminate Asians. So there'd be no reason for the average Westerner to want to reject Asian cultural influences.

Or maybe there was a plague that the Westerners were able to escape but the Chinese were not.

 

[Starbreaker]

Most confusing thread EVAR.

 

[cynical dreamer]

"Talent imitates, genius steals"

"This has all happened before and will happen again"

There isn't a writer alive who hasn't borrowed from other writers.

"We all stand on the shoulders of giants."

 

[Ryan]

Why, given their supposed dominance, not one Asian would happen at random to be part of this fairly randomly-assembled group of travelers always seemed to me to be a question that begged an explanation.

I dunno. It doesn't bother me too much. America has a certain cultural dominance and English is one of the most spoken second languages in the world but it wouldn't be odd if a person outside North America never visited the United States or knew any Americans.

I definitely would have loved to have seen the Chinese side of the Alliance but it's nothing worth freaking out over.

 

[Trekker4747]

After screening several episodes where - apart from being space cowboys and quasi-anarchists - the cast of the show wear kimonos, carry paper parasols, and talk about making pau, I started to get more and more annoyed. But was I just being a jerk? What was so wrong with the array of East Asian symbols and decor on the set of Firefly? Was I preventing myself from enjoying a perfectly good TV show by being some sort of yellow fever watchdog?

Yes,

 

[Dusty Ayres]

IMHO you can't appropriate a culture that's been put up for sale.

When a culture has been canned, commercialized and exported for sale abroad for decades, there's nothing to appropriate.

I think the criticism of appropriation is somewhat valid if you start taking some third world culture's folk music and then record it with white artists and try to copyright it and make millions off of it and never pay a cent to the original artists. But Japan and Bollywood for another example, they've marketed their cultures and I think the whole appropriation criticism is bull.

Try telling it to the writer of the piece, and she'll cut your tounge out verbally-these young people NEVER listen or understand, or do a general look-around.

I think Whedon has "appropriated" feminism and used a cheap version of it to offset his fetishes and soft core porn fantasies he keeps writing into his stories.

What fetish has he used? None that I can see; he hasen't even engaged in a foot fetish like Quentin Tarantino does in his movies, save for issue #7 of the Buffy comic book and an epsiode of Firefly. And soft core porno insinuations are a little off-base.

Acting isn't exactly a particularly encouraged profession amongst the Asian-American population in my experience. Out of the dozen or so shows I've done, I've encountered 2 east-Asian actors, including at the auditions. If they're casting for the best actors without going out of their way to find Asians specifically, then it really isn't surprising to have a cast with so few Asians in it.

Casting call, anyone? Those are not hard to do; all you have to do is put an ad in the paper, and repeat as many times as nesscary.

 

[LaxScrutiny]

What fetish has he used? None that I can see; he hasen't even engaged in a foot fetish like Quentin Tarantino does in his movies, save for issue #7 of the Buffy comic book and an epsiode of Firefly. And soft core porno insinuations are a little off-base.

You've never seen a cute, petite, leather clad female beating up a big man on a Whedon show? Two really hot young femme girls in bed together? I must have messed up my PVR and been watching some other show. Sorry.

 

[Forbin]

I have to say the casting of Firefly was exceptional. There are few casts I have encountered with so much talent.

Summer Glau is one of the worst actresses I've seen come along in recent memory, but I do enjoy Nathan Fillion's acting. He's got a natural quality, unlike Glau who seems to have taken acting lessons in a graveyard.

 

[Venardhi]

Acting isn't exactly a particularly encouraged profession amongst the Asian-American population in my experience. Out of the dozen or so shows I've done, I've encountered 2 east-Asian actors, including at the auditions. If they're casting for the best actors without going out of their way to find Asians specifically, then it really isn't surprising to have a cast with so few Asians in it.

Casting call, anyone? Those are not hard to do; all you have to do is put an ad in the paper, and repeat as many times as nesscary.

My point is that obviously they could go out of their way to find asian actors for specific roles, but if they're looking for the best actors without limiting themselves to a specific nationality, then the likelihood of them picking an asian out of the herd is pretty unlikely just because they make up such a small percentage of the acting population.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

I wonder if Simon and River Tam were intended to be Chinese characters at some point. The names sound right and the characters seem to work well with being Asian (unlike say Jayne or Book IMO).

 

[Sci]

You've never seen a cute, petite, leather clad female beating up a big man on a Whedon show? Two really hot young femme girls in bed together?

I have, and I don't think he ever did that for sexual or pornographic intent.

 

[FordSVT]

I have to say the casting of Firefly was exceptional. There are few casts I have encountered with so much talent.

Summer Glau is one of the worst actresses I've seen come along in recent memory, but I do enjoy Nathan Fillion's acting. He's got a natural quality, unlike Glau who seems to have taken acting lessons in a graveyard.

Which part were you having a hard time understanding?

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Summer Glau is one of the worst actresses I've seen come along in recent memory, but I do enjoy Nathan Fillion's acting. He's got a natural quality, unlike Glau who seems to have taken acting lessons in a graveyard.

Which part were you having a hard time understanding?

Your taste, I'm guessing.

 

[FordSVT]

Which part were you having a hard time understanding?

Your taste, I'm guessing.

What's wrong with Nathan Fillion?