Jon Stewart rips Obama a new one on debt deal

[Robert Maxwell]

The problem is that we've continued to lower taxes through multiple stimulus packages and the job growth just isn't there. I supported when both Bush and Obama attempted to cure our economic issues with lower tax rates and I just don't see them as working in any meaningful way with unemployment hovering around ten percent.

The people who have benefited most from the stimulus simply haven't put the money back into the economy. If they refuse to put the money back into the economy, then we might as well get it out of them by repealing the tax cuts.

There was only one stimulus, and it wasn't big enough. Cutting taxes is not nearly sufficient stimulus. It has to be accompanied by extra spending--and lots of it.

The stimulus actually did improve things. If you look at the GDP numbers, things started to slide again once the stimulus ran out, and it could've done more good had it been a lot bigger.

The lesson is that we need more stimulus, not less, and tax cuts are of very little value in an economy like this.

I could've sworn that Bush and Obama both did separate stimulus packages.

Any stimulus is designed to increase cash flowing through the economy temporarily. Temporarily is the key word here, at some point the private sector has to increase spending or else it doesn't matter how big the stimulus is. Until they have a plan to fix employment in a meaningful way, stimulus packages are no more than band-aids. And last about as long.

Oh, the first was that thing where Bush sent checks to everyone? I forgot about that one. What a joke.

And you're right, the whole point of a stimulus is to stimulate until private demand comes back up. Well, in case you haven't noticed, demand is still in the toilet. People aren't buying, and now Obama's stimulus has run out. Taxes can't really be cut any more than they are now, businesses have no reason to spend (again, no demand), unemployment is still way too high, and the party in control of the House is completely against any kind of stimulus spending.

So, what now?

 

[DarthTom]

The problem is that we've continued to lower taxes through multiple stimulus packages and the job growth just isn't there. I supported when both Bush and Obama attempted to cure our economic issues with lower tax rates and I just don't see them as working in any meaningful way with unemployment hovering around ten percent.

The people who have benefited most from the stimulus simply haven't put the money back into the economy. If they refuse to put the money back into the economy, then we might as well get it out of them by repealing the tax cuts.

Small business owners are the biggest engines of growth in the US and from their point of view insufficient demand exists to invest and expand. It's a chicken and egg problem but there ya go.

 

[BillJ]

So, what now?

Honestly? The government needs to work with the private sector on targeted stimulus packages in areas where job growth can be guaranteed. They also need to make sure that businesses can't take advantage of those federal dollars unless they are actually paying out a certain amount to low-level employees. Then they need to take the dollars from taxes collected from those new jobs and earmark them for infrastructure projects.

There can't be anymore throwing dollars at the private sector and hoping they spend it in a way that generates growth.

 

[BillJ]

The problem is that we've continued to lower taxes through multiple stimulus packages and the job growth just isn't there. I supported when both Bush and Obama attempted to cure our economic issues with lower tax rates and I just don't see them as working in any meaningful way with unemployment hovering around ten percent.

The people who have benefited most from the stimulus simply haven't put the money back into the economy. If they refuse to put the money back into the economy, then we might as well get it out of them by repealing the tax cuts.

Small business owners are the biggest engines of growth in the US and from their point of view insufficient demand exists to invest and expand. It's a chicken and egg problem but there ya go.

Then it becomes obvious that a general stimulus package is a fools errand.

 

[DarthTom]

So, what now?

I know several small business owners and if the law makers in Washington would get out of the way and stop passing laws that create uncertainty in the business market about making capital outlays and what costs will be involved in running their business perhaps America could get back to the business of running a business.

Several small business owners I spoken with felt uncertainty when the health care bill was passed on how that would affect their business in terms of costs and then the tax rates affected their outlook and now finally this debt crisis.

If anything the people on both sides of the aisle in Washington are guilty of is creating a climate of fear in the business community on what month-month or year - to - year it's going to cost them to run their business.

And I'm talking about small business people who have between 1-99 employees not the big guys.

 

[Lindley]

They also need to make sure that businesses can't take advantage of those federal dollars unless they are actually paying out a certain amount to low-level employees.

Not too low-level. Creating jobs isn't terribly useful if those jobs pay next to nothing.

 

[BillJ]

This...

Small business owners are the biggest engines of growth in the US and from their point of view insufficient demand exists to invest and expand. It's a chicken and egg problem but there ya go.

Directly contradicts this...

I know several small business owners and if the law makers in Washington would get out of the way and stop passing laws that create uncertainty in the business market about making capital outlays and what costs will be involved in running their business perhaps America could get back to the business of running a business.

Several small business owners I spoken with felt uncertainty when the health care bill was passed on how that would affect their business in terms of costs and then the tax rates affected their outlook and now finally this debt crisis.

If anything the people on both sides of the aisle in Washington are guilty of is creating a climate of fear in the business community on what month-month or year - to - year it's going to cost them to run their business.

And I'm talking about small business people who have between 1-99 employees not the big guys.

Which is it? If there isn't any demand in the private sector for their goods then it doesn't matter what Washington does.

 

[BillJ]

They also need to make sure that businesses can't take advantage of those federal dollars unless they are actually paying out a certain amount to low-level employees.

Not too low-level. Creating jobs isn't terribly useful if those jobs pay next to nothing.

Agreed!

 

[Robert Maxwell]

So, what now?

I know several small business owners and if the law makers in Washington would get out of the way and stop passing laws that create uncertainty in the business market about making capital outlays and what costs will be involved in running their business perhaps America could get back to the business of running a business.

Several small business owners I spoken with felt uncertainty when the health care bill was passed on how that would affect their business in terms of costs and then the tax rates affected their outlook and now finally this debt crisis.

If anything the people on both sides of the aisle in Washington are guilty of is creating a climate of fear in the business community on what month-month or year - to - year it's going to cost them to run their business.

And I'm talking about small business people who have between 1-99 employees not the big guys.

"Climate of fear." Yeah, that horrible climate of fear where tax rates have stayed the same or gone down since the early 2000s, right? And where healthcare reform was passed in order to control those runaway costs businesses are so worried about?

It's pretty evident that businesses will fabricate any excuse to explain why they aren't hiring, because just admitting "we don't need more people" is apparently bad PR.

There is always the possibility of regulations and costs changing over time. That's how the world works. Nothing is guaranteed. It is absolutely no more of a valid excuse now than it was 10 years ago, unless the presence of a Democrat in the White House suddenly makes everything too scary to cope with.

 

[DarthTom]

The stimulus was pocket change. A big deal was made about it, but some economists say that in order to have had the desired effect, the stimulus would have needed to be an order of magnitude larger.

Keynesian economics isn't going to get us out of this problem. Throwing money at the problem as Milton Friedman quibbles below often fails to address the issue:

Milton Friedman was visiting some third world country once and he asked his guide why men were trying to build roads using shovels. His guide replied that if they were to use equipment, there would be fewer jobs for laborers. Friedman’s response was, “Then why not have them use spoons?” Progress and technology are not the enemy. It frees people to do more constructive things with the time that the techology has saved them. The real destroyer of jobs and wealth is, as always, government.

 

[BillJ]

The stimulus was pocket change. A big deal was made about it, but some economists say that in order to have had the desired effect, the stimulus would have needed to be an order of magnitude larger.

Keynesian economics isn't going to get us out of this problem. Throwing money at the problem as Milton Friedman quibbles below often fails to address the issue:

Milton Friedman was visiting some third world country once and he asked his guide why men were trying to build roads using shovels. His guide replied that if they were to use equipment, there would be fewer jobs for laborers. Friedman’s response was, “Then why not have them use spoons?” Progress and technology are not the enemy. It frees people to do more constructive things with the time that the techology has saved them. The real destroyer of jobs and wealth is, as always, government.

What utter and complete bullshit. Then why don't we just get rid of police and firemen? If someone pisses us off then we'll just gun them down in the street. And if they have no kin to come and clean up the body we'll just burn it right there.

I love that people have been led down the "government is evil" road so easily and they're being led there by people who took advantage of government (Michele Bachmann) to get where they are.

The whole scenario we currently find ourselves in is utterly insane.

 

[DarthTom]

"Climate of fear." Yeah, that horrible climate of fear where tax rates have stayed the same or gone down since the early 2000s, right? And where healthcare reform was passed in order to control those runaway costs businesses are so worried about?

You can dismiss their concerns but they are still valid. While my evidence is anecdotal I'm sure I could find some actual real life quotes about why small business people aren't investing.

This aside, the real reason we aren't climbing out of this recession is because there is zero housing growth and the US economy is heavily dependent upon the residential and commercial construction and sales.

This to some degree may be Monday morning quarterbacking but the President should have put health care reform on the sidelines 2 years ago and focused only on the economy.

And to dovetail to the actual topic as Stewart rightly notes the President really missed it when he failed to get a debt ceiling increase back in December which would have avoided this whole mess.

 

[Lindley]

Keynesian economics isn't going to get us out of this problem.

Well, regardless of whether it would work or not, it's probably politically impossible in the current environment anyway.

 

[JiNX-01]

One, make your points without the language. Two, lets hear the FACTS behind your blaming the Republicans for this mess. You accuse but with lack of evidence. Give us the unedited facts and let the readers decide.

"koff*... George W. and the GOP cut taxes thus wiping out the BUDGET SURPLUS they inherited from Clinton. At the same time Bush launched TWO WARS and paid for them with a credit card. So now, the Chinese hold a trillion dollar IOU on America.

Bush administration regulators looked the other way while banks played fast and loose with American mortgages, thus contributing to the crash of the global economy and the loss of millions of American jobs and homes.

Bush also weakened labor. For eight years -- I kid you not -- the National Labor Relations Board web site became the go-to place for businessmen and women who wanted prevent unions from organizing and bust those that were already in place.

 

[DarthTom]

What utter and complete bullshit. Then why don't we just get rid of police and firemen? If someone pisses us off then we'll just gun them down in the street. And if they have no kin to come and clean up the body we'll just burn it right there.

President Obama himself admits to the NY Times later in his Presidency that there is no such thing as 'shovel ready projects.' He also admits that he should have insisted on tax cuts instead.

NY Times

“there’s no such thing as shovel-ready projects” and perhaps should have “let the Republicans insist on the tax cuts” in the stimulus.

 

[DarthTom]

Well, regardless of whether it would work or not, it's probably politically impossible in the current environment anyway.

That's an interesting comment, 'politically impossible' that is. Because the Tea Party people have acheived what many heretofore would have labeled as 'politically impossible,' in the debt ceiling bill.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Well, regardless of whether it would work or not, it's probably politically impossible in the current environment anyway.

That's an interesting comment, 'politically impossible' that is. Because the Tea Party people have acheived what many heretofore would have labeled as 'politically impossible,' in the debt ceiling bill.

Only because the sane people in Congress couldn't let the Tea Party get away with torpedoing the entire economy.

 

[Lindley]

They had good leverage: they were willing to destroy the economy of the entire world. That unfortunately lets you push pretty hard.

Since Obama isn't crazy, he has nothing of equal pressure to work with against the tea party.

 

[BillJ]

What utter and complete bullshit. Then why don't we just get rid of police and firemen? If someone pisses us off then we'll just gun them down in the street. And if they have no kin to come and clean up the body we'll just burn it right there.

President Obama himself admits to the NY Times later in his Presidency that there is no such thing as 'shovel ready projects.' He also admits that he should have insisted on tax cuts instead.

NY Times

“there’s no such thing as shovel-ready projects” and perhaps should have “let the Republicans insist on the tax cuts” in the stimulus.

I really don't know what this had to do with my post?

 

[iguana_tonante]

^ Nothing, as usual.