John Nathan-Turner the Deathlord of Dr. Who
- Thread starter starsuperion
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^Not sure what the point of your political dig was in the previous post, but if we're going to be like that, it should be noted that Grade is a conservative peer in the House of Lords.
I can't really believe that JNT wanted to destroy the old show, he did want off of the show and they wouldn't let him. And yes Doctor Who was a left leaning show and that was due basically to JNT.
JNT's biggest problem was that he wasn't a writer and really didn't have much a clue what direction to take the show in.
JNT's biggest problem was that he wasn't a writer and really didn't have much a clue what direction to take the show in.
Doctor Who has almost always leaned left. Old school writer, Malcolm Hulke, was a member of the Communist party, and stories where an eeeevil greedy corporation is bent on world/galactic domination/profit at the expense of the common man are a staple of at least Doctors 3-5 stories.
What killed off the show originally was its failure to move with the times, for several reasons. The programme was always low budget, but for a long time that didn't matter so much - people were very forgiving (it wasn't trying to be a serious gritty space drama, it was a family show that didn't take itself too seriously) and the series was very witty and inventive in spite of its production shortcomings. Over time though, audience expectations changed, especially post-Star Wars and the resulting boom in impressive-looking US SF. Suddenly, Doctor Who looked terribly old-hat, and in hindsight should probably have either been put out to pasture at that point, or had a massive cash injection, but for whatever reason neither one of those things happened.
The lore goes that when Graham Williams left, the BBC had a hell of a job finding a replacement - every producer they approached took one look at the budget and basically said, "No way! I can't make it for that amount of money; a few years ago maybe, but not now." JN-T was apparently the only one who threw his hat into the ring.
The show was allowed to limp on into the '80s, still being made in the same vein as it always had been, essentially in soap opera fashion; studio-bound, multi-camera, horribly over-lit and on on a strict time limit. If the shots weren't in the can by 10pm, tough; the electricians would pull the plug. Done.
With the show looking increasingly cheap and laughable, its reputation declined and it became a poisoned chalice within the TV industry, which fed back into the quality of the show itself. This was compounded by a series of bizarre creative decisions by JN-T - Colin Baker's outfit and characterisation, not wanting to use established Who writers etc. It was a vicious circle; Michael Grade and Jonathan Powell hated the show, and weren't interested in regenerating it, as it were; it would have cost a lot of time and money and they wanted to do other things. By now, the programme was a 20-odd-year-old relic from a bygone era, created by a previous regime with a different ethos; it was being run into the ground and they had no passion for digging it out.
After the cancellation crisis of 1985, the tabloid "outcry" resulted in a reprieve (on the condition that Colin Baker be replaced), but with the series being actively sabotaged from within by being scheduled opposite popular soap opera Coronation Street, essentially a suicide slot. It's pretty much exactly what happened with Star Trek Season 3.
I always liked his stories, he tried to make humans the enemy not some alien or the storyline's monster. Although I can't really see Doctor Who as a political show, I know that many factors come into play in et writing of the show.
On Colin's coat:
I don't really buy the "It was the '80's" argument, after all, every single other person who worked on the program except for JNT- including the person who designed it and the guy who had to wear it- thought it was a mistake at the time. It was one man having a massive brain fart, not a sign of the times.
I know it has its fans, and more power to you, but I was amazed when watching the production notes on the DVD of Mysterious Planet that they'd had to make him a new coat due to Colin having put some weight on and chose to try and make it as close to the original as possible.
The show's in trouble, you're desperately trying to save it and there's one aspect of the series from the previous year that had generally gone down like a cup of cold vomit which would be the easiest of the program's various issues to change, and you're having to replace it anyway. How did that not result in a new look costume for him? If they couldn't even manage that most basic of things, it's little wonder Trial has problems.
Mind, whatever fatigue/Saward issues JNT had during Colin's time, I think he turned things around enough during McCoy to make it a good thing he stayed on. It's just a shame Colin didn't get to enjoy the renascence.
I don't really buy the "It was the '80's" argument, after all, every single other person who worked on the program except for JNT- including the person who designed it and the guy who had to wear it- thought it was a mistake at the time. It was one man having a massive brain fart, not a sign of the times.
I know it has its fans, and more power to you, but I was amazed when watching the production notes on the DVD of Mysterious Planet that they'd had to make him a new coat due to Colin having put some weight on and chose to try and make it as close to the original as possible.
The show's in trouble, you're desperately trying to save it and there's one aspect of the series from the previous year that had generally gone down like a cup of cold vomit which would be the easiest of the program's various issues to change, and you're having to replace it anyway. How did that not result in a new look costume for him? If they couldn't even manage that most basic of things, it's little wonder Trial has problems.
Mind, whatever fatigue/Saward issues JNT had during Colin's time, I think he turned things around enough during McCoy to make it a good thing he stayed on. It's just a shame Colin didn't get to enjoy the renascence.
Just wrapped up the Colin Baker stories. Tomorrow starts McCoy. Someone made a good point over in the "Did Tom Baker Stay Too Long" thread about budgets and sci fi that got me thinking. Prior to about the middle of Tom Baker, the budgets were just fine. A lot of people watch classic Trek today and complain about the "cheap production values." But in the '60s, "Star Trek's" production values were top notch. As a kid, I remember watching the reruns on Sunday mornings and thinking how great it would be if more sci fi shows had as good an FX as Trek.
Then, in 1977, a Star Destroyer filled up the screen as it brought a blockade runner to bay above a desert planet and what was "good FX" changed forever.
So I can see JNT's argument that Who's budget and FX didn't make the grade. I'll give him that. Buuttt....
That doesn't excuse his horrible costuming decisions. It doesn't excuse his preference for writers and directors that had never done Who before. The stories of 1980s are just terrible.
And if you're doing a time travel show and you don't have the budget to compete with Industrial Light and Magic, the obvious answer on line with what they did during the Pertwee era: do more Earth episodes--particularly in the past. I assume the BBC has a pretty ample costume and prop shop. Maybe make the TARDIS malfunction so its spatial coordinates are limited. It still travels through time, but somehow, she keeps coming back to England on Earth. Maybe do a story a season with a Big Bad like the Daleks, Cybermen, etc--the monsters they already have costumes for, but focus on stories you can do for less money.
Oh, the other thing he gets some leeway on is meddling by the BBC. I understand they forced him to fire Colin Baker, and the biggest problem with Baker was the stories he was given to work with. Who knows what other constraints he was fighting. Still, he was the producer. That's what they pay producers to do--keep the suits out of the creatives' hair. I feel as bad about JNT failing to mollify the BBC as I do about the Bermaga being dictated to by UPN. Ron Moore had to work with a studio on BSG. That turned out OK.
Then, in 1977, a Star Destroyer filled up the screen as it brought a blockade runner to bay above a desert planet and what was "good FX" changed forever.
So I can see JNT's argument that Who's budget and FX didn't make the grade. I'll give him that. Buuttt....
That doesn't excuse his horrible costuming decisions. It doesn't excuse his preference for writers and directors that had never done Who before. The stories of 1980s are just terrible.
And if you're doing a time travel show and you don't have the budget to compete with Industrial Light and Magic, the obvious answer on line with what they did during the Pertwee era: do more Earth episodes--particularly in the past. I assume the BBC has a pretty ample costume and prop shop. Maybe make the TARDIS malfunction so its spatial coordinates are limited. It still travels through time, but somehow, she keeps coming back to England on Earth. Maybe do a story a season with a Big Bad like the Daleks, Cybermen, etc--the monsters they already have costumes for, but focus on stories you can do for less money.
Oh, the other thing he gets some leeway on is meddling by the BBC. I understand they forced him to fire Colin Baker, and the biggest problem with Baker was the stories he was given to work with. Who knows what other constraints he was fighting. Still, he was the producer. That's what they pay producers to do--keep the suits out of the creatives' hair. I feel as bad about JNT failing to mollify the BBC as I do about the Bermaga being dictated to by UPN. Ron Moore had to work with a studio on BSG. That turned out OK.
Star Wars not only killed TV Dr Who's chances, it also killed the Scratchman proposal - Marter and TB left the cinema realising that they had no hope of matching Darth Vader and the Death Star.
I think Star Wars did have an impact but it was more indirect. I think people were smart enough to realise that there was a difference between what could be achived in a film and what could be achived on telly, I think the problem is that SW prompted things like Battlestar and Buck which showed what you could achive on telly, though that said Blakes 7 ran for four years post Star Wars.
I do think there are good solid stories in the 80s, what always stands out for me is how bright everything is, the show pre JNT just seemed to have a more muted and sombre palette. One of the best examples of this is Warriors of the Deep, I still think it's a decent story, and if they'd just turned the lights down a bit it would have made a hell of a difference!
I do think there are good solid stories in the 80s, what always stands out for me is how bright everything is, the show pre JNT just seemed to have a more muted and sombre palette. One of the best examples of this is Warriors of the Deep, I still think it's a decent story, and if they'd just turned the lights down a bit it would have made a hell of a difference!
JNT was the only real choice in 1979. No one else wanted it, not even JNT's predecessor as PUM.
Doctor Who had a a lot more standing with fans than it ever did in the TV industry.
Even Oscar-winning Ron Moody saw the show as a "tatty" childrens' show with "plywood sets".
Hinchcliffe was sacked, not just because of Mary Whitehouse, but because he had angered the BBC by overspending, and he had angered many parents by making the show less safe for young children.
Doctor Who had a a lot more standing with fans than it ever did in the TV industry.
Even Oscar-winning Ron Moody saw the show as a "tatty" childrens' show with "plywood sets".
Hinchcliffe was sacked, not just because of Mary Whitehouse, but because he had angered the BBC by overspending, and he had angered many parents by making the show less safe for young children.
Doctorwhovian
Fleet Captain
There's some noticeable influence of Star Wars on Doctor Who, especially in Eric Saward's work. While some think K-9 is based on R2, I've read that K9 actually was developed before Star Wars came out (robot sidekicks weren't something Star Wars came up with after all, there were certainly some older sci-fi with the concept).
Earthshock I think sort of made some changes to the Cybermen that were more in line with the Star Wars aesthetic-although they still retained their silver colors, elements of the 80's Cybermen had some inspiration IMO from the Stormtroopers and Darth Vader. David Bank's take on the Cyberleader, with his deeper voice and body laungauge is very Vaderish (Although elements of his portrayal do sort of come from the "Revenge" Cyberleader, such as the "Excellent!")
Also Ressurection of the Dalek's attack on the space station is fairly similar to the opening of Star Wars, and of course the Dalek troopers wear a similar helmet to some of the Imperial guys, although one with a goofy looking Dalek eyestalk and lights.
Earthshock I think sort of made some changes to the Cybermen that were more in line with the Star Wars aesthetic-although they still retained their silver colors, elements of the 80's Cybermen had some inspiration IMO from the Stormtroopers and Darth Vader. David Bank's take on the Cyberleader, with his deeper voice and body laungauge is very Vaderish (Although elements of his portrayal do sort of come from the "Revenge" Cyberleader, such as the "Excellent!")
Also Ressurection of the Dalek's attack on the space station is fairly similar to the opening of Star Wars, and of course the Dalek troopers wear a similar helmet to some of the Imperial guys, although one with a goofy looking Dalek eyestalk and lights.
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