John Nathan Turner and the 80s

[Whofan]

With all this RTD this-and-that, it's important to remember that he wasn't the first controversial producer of WHO. However, while RTD revived the program to great success, it was arguably JNT who drove it to the ground in the 80s.


JNT took over the show in the 1980s, during season 18. Season 17 had done well in the ratings, but many felt that WHO was becoming far too silly under producer Graham Williams. So JNT (along with Christopher Bidmead) sort of took a total 180 turn from the campy Williams era. The show retired the "Time vortex" opening and closing credits, replacing them with a starfield effect with a somewhat less spooky Tom Baker face, and the stories became more based in technobabble. The effects were also somewhat improved (although still extremely dated by today's standards) and the music made more varied and electronic.

Also written out were K-9 and Lalla Ward's Romana, who was dating Tom Baker at the time (The two married eventually but that was short-lived). Tom of course himself left after the season was over.

Overall Tom's last season saw a dip in ratings, although the ratings were recovered partially with the Peter Davison era, which turned to the Hartnell era for inspiration (Hartnell's legacy would also have it's affect on the last two Doctors as well). Specifically, although his Doctor has a reputation as a nice guy, he did often argue with his companions (Which for the first time since the Hartnell era also were more than two) and there was considerable tension. Although generally well-received by fans and the general public, there were still signs that things were not going too well behind the scenes.

And then came Colin Baker and Sylvestor McCoy. Colin's tenure was mainly troubled by JNT starting to assert too much control over stuff such as the Doctor's costume, infighting between him and script editor Eric Saward, and a general decline in the scripts. Plus BBC controller Michael Grade had a major problem with both the show (Which he thought was behind the times) and Colin Baker in particular. So he canned it in season 22, even though the ratings were arguably still strong.


However, massive outcry (including a corny song) caused Grade to bring DW back two years, but it's budget was even lower (Apart from a fantastic model shot of the Time Lord station) and everything was now shot on video instead of using film for exteriors. At the end of Trial of a Time lord-the aptly named season-Colin would be fired by Grade-and the ratings would drop to life-support levels.


By season 24 JNT wanted out but was forced to stay on, and the search went on for another new Doctor. They found him in Sylvestor McCoy, mainly a comedian who had done a few bit roles in films here and there. McCoy was largely disliked by the public and fan community at first although by his second and third seasons he had gained some goodwill with a new, darker take on the character and less slapstick. But by then, the show was cancelled.


JNT continued to be involved somewhat with WHO projects (Dimensions In Time and a few VHS and DVD releases) up to his death in 2002, a year before the announcement that WHO would come back. He had nothing to do with the 1996 movie though.

It's interesting that in many ways JNT is similar to today's producers-he often got criticized for making the show lighter (during the later Colin Baker and McCoy years, mainly) and stunt casting, such as Bonnie Langford as Mel. One thing he doesn't really share with the new producers is that during his tenure there were a lot more references to past WHO; specifically in the Dalek and Cybermen stories. While in the age of repeats and home video this might not seem like a huge deal, it's important to remember that British programs were not often repeated back then, and of course a lot of black and white classic WHO was (and still is) lost. Continuity with older stories, while still present in WHO today, seems to be treated with more caution and with respect to new viewers IMO

 

[The]

^Yeah, I think one of the main reasons JNT's era gets bogged-down, so to speak, is the insane amount of references and nods backwards. While the past should never be forgotten, Doctor Who is at its best when it's carving new paths. By the time Colin took over, the show was simply retreading old villains, old stories, and old ideas, in an effort to secure the more continuity-driven American fans of franchises like Trek and Star Wars. In the end, that was the beginning of the Beeb forgetting the quintessential rule of the show: Doctor Who is British. It's made by the Brits. It should be made for the Brits. And the more you attempt to dilute that by pandering to a wider market, the more Who loses its charm and identity (SEE: McGann TV Movie). Luckily, RTD remembered that in 2005. I think that's one of the single, key successes to the series. Remembering it's British...

 

[Captain Pike]

I guess from my perspective they were both men who had a huge amount of enthusiasm for the show (RTD's enthusiasm is infectious and JNT's respect for what went before verged on reverential) and they both kinda mucked it up a bit.

JNT's great strength was as a showman. He should have been given the reigns of some variety show somewhere, not the helm of Doctor Who. The BBC were wrong to make him stay on way past his used by date - it was in hindsight a huge mistake (if you are going to bring back and re-invent a show, the first step should be a largely new production staff).

Anyway, that's my take on it. The JNT years were like watching an old friend lose his mind and slowly start to die. There was the odd spark, but by and large it was dire stuff.

 

[Starkers]

^Yeah, I think one of the main reasons JNT's era gets bogged-down, so to speak, is the insane amount of references and nods backwards. While the past should never be forgotten, Doctor Who is at its best when it's carving new paths. By the time Colin took over, the show was simply retreading old villains, old stories, and old ideas, in an effort to secure the more continuity-driven American fans of franchises like Trek and Star Wars. In the end, that was the beginning of the Beeb forgetting the quintessential rule of the show: Doctor Who is British. It's made by the Brits. It should be made for the Brits. And the more you attempt to dilute that by pandering to a wider market, the more Who loses its charm and identity (SEE: McGann TV Movie). Luckily, RTD remembered that in 2005. I think that's one of the single, key successes to the series. Remembering it's British...

I think you're utterly, completely right. Whatever the respective merits of RTD and now Moffat, the show is undeniably still British, and that is a major factor in its continuted strength.

Brit tv could learn a lot from the US, but sometimes I think the reverse is true...

 

[The]

Oh, I certainly know the reverse is true. There is nothing "untouchable" about American tv culture, I assure you.

 

[Stevil2001]

Season 18 is my second-favorite season of the old show, and I like the Davison years a lot, but I'll admit they have their ropey moments. On the other hand, I find most of the stories in Colin's first season excruciating. Not so much because the Doctor and Peri bicker, but because she plainly doesn't even want to be there. She never enjoys anything that is happening (I find the first half of Revelation particularly bad on this score), so why is she there? Peri is an utter failure as a companion figure as a result.

 

[Starkers]

Yeah I can see what you mean. I realise Tegan didn't always want to be there either but there was at least a sort of act with Tegan in that she eventually realised she did want to be there...until she didn't.

Whilst I sometimes think the new series takes it too far in that many companions have this notion of travelleing with the Doctor forever (not the only ones though its implied Sarah Jane possibly thought this, even before School Reunion), the classic series too often fell into the trap of the companion having no real reason for being there sometimes.

 

[VDCNI]

I suppose with Tegan it seemed like she enjoyed the bickering to some extent and did after a while seem happy to jump in and try and solve problems. Peri just whined. The first time (since transmission) that I watched Trial Of The Timelord I was actually happy to have Mel show up because she at least wanted to be there!

My main issue with the JNT years is that they seemed more interested in replicating what had worked in the past rather than going their own way as had been the norm up to now. They still produced some good stories but new approaches were few and far between and they spent far too much time trying to get the continuity right.

It wasn't until the McCoy years that they started to leave that behind (so you to wonder how much of it was Saward who was gone by that point). Paradise Towers, Delta & Dragonfire may not be the best stories but at least they were all about new worlds or times we'd never seen before.

Oh and does modern who really stunt cast that much? I can only think of Catherine Tate, Kylie & Katherine Jenkins. The first is a proper actress so doesn't realy count, the second had acted in the past and I doubt Jenkins is being given that tough a role (no matter who much they might have raved about how impressed they were in the recent DWM). Plus they were all (initially) one off guests.

 

[Starkers]

Yeah the stunt casting is an odd one, especially given the kinds of people who turned up in the 80s. Was Alexi Sayle stunt casting or Hale and Pace? (the former probably not, the latter probably yes!)

Yes Tate's a proper actress, and lets face it Kylie was first known as an actress. As for Jenkins, even though she hasnt acted before I'd hardly call it stunt casting since she isn't that universally known. I can't imagine there'll be hundreds of thousands of people specifically tuning in to watch Who because she's in it.

Trinny and Susanah, Anne Robinson and Devina McCall in Bad Wolf could be called stunt casting, but I don't recall it being used as a big selling point or anything. Peter Kaye would stand out as stunt casting for me, but by the same token is that any different than Alexi Sayle in the grand scheme of things?

Depends on what your notion of stunt casting is I guess and it seems to be different things to different people. Personally I'll worry when the Doctor regenerates into Jordan...

 

[VDCNI]

I forgot about Peter Kaye - he would count I suppose.

 

[The]

It's so funny, because as an American, "stunt casting" in Who means nothing to me. The exceptions being, of course, when they pull from a joint-Hollywood pool of actors (i.e. Tim Dalton). Everyone else is just an "actor" to me. Naturally, though, even I can tell substance over flash in the guest-actors. Catherine Tate? Total substance. A sublime actress. Kylie Minogue? The first Who actress I've wanted to claw out of my brain since Bonnie Langford...

 

[Mr Awe]

It's interesting that in many ways JNT is similar to today's producers-he often got criticized for making the show lighter (during the later Colin Baker and McCoy years, mainly) and stunt casting, such as Bonnie Langford as Mel. One thing he doesn't really share with the new producers is that during his tenure there were a lot more references to past WHO;

The references to the past were really no big deal at the time. People now attribute a lot to that but in actuality it was the extremely crappy stories. They were just plain terrible.

Mr Awe

 

[Captain Pike]

Very true Mr Awe, well said.

 

[Starkers]

It's so funny, because as an American, "stunt casting" in Who means nothing to me. The exceptions being, of course, when they pull from a joint-Hollywood pool of actors (i.e. Tim Dalton). Everyone else is just an "actor" to me. Naturally, though, even I can tell substance over flash in the guest-actors. Catherine Tate? Total substance. A sublime actress. Kylie Minogue? The first Who actress I've wanted to claw out of my brain since Bonnie Langford...

Nobody steps on a Kylie in my town!!

 

[The Nth Doctor]

It's so funny, because as an American, "stunt casting" in Who means nothing to me. The exceptions being, of course, when they pull from a joint-Hollywood pool of actors (i.e. Tim Dalton). Everyone else is just an "actor" to me. Naturally, though, even I can tell substance over flash in the guest-actors. Catherine Tate? Total substance. A sublime actress. Kylie Minogue? The first Who actress I've wanted to claw out of my brain since Bonnie Langford...

Nobody steps on a Kylie in my town!!

Or mine! Kylie was about the only good thing about Voyage of the Damaned.

 

[The]

Well, luckily, I'm not near either of you, so . Seriously, Kylie isn't a great actress. However, I think she's terribly hot, so that balances out. I really detest everything around her in VotD, though. People complain about Love & Monsters and Peter Kaye. But, at least that had a solid story behind it before it got to the absurd. There was nothing solid behind "Max". Oh my god, he reminded me of the bad guy in Syl McCoy's Paradise Towers. Ugh!!

 

[Starkers]

Yeah Max in VOTD was a ludicrous villain (although this is Who) the story kinda went downhill from that point on for me, but I like the idea of the doctor involved in a disaster movie!

 

[Sci]

"Stunt casting" can definitely be a subjective thing. Is it stunt casting to have Sir Michael Gambon in "A Christmas Carol?" He's most famous to the child audience as Dumbledore, and that may well be how most kids approach the episode, but, there again, he's also one of the most respected actors in Great Britain. On the other hand, I have a hard time seeing Katherine Jenkins, who has never acted before, as anything other than stunt casting -- but there again, she may well turn out to be a wonderful actress who blows everyone away.

I suppose my take on it would be that it's stunt casting if the person being cast is famous but not primarily famous for acting, or is famous for acting in a very specific style. Kylie, let's face it, is known first and foremost as a singer, not an actor; to me, that was stunt casting, but it was stunt casting that worked well, as I really enjoyed her performance as Astrid. With Tate, she was famous, but was more famous for performing comedy than for straight acting, so I'd argue that when she was cast in "The Runaway Bride," it counted as stunt casting, but that she so proved her bona fides as an actor in Series Four that today she'd be considered both an actor and a comedienne. So an act of stunt casting "legitimized" her, so to speak.

 

[sidious618]

I liked the JNT era. It contains a lot of my favorite Doctor Who episodes.

 

[Shatnertage]

There just seemed to be a lot of weird stuff going on in the JNT era that didn't make a lot of sense. One thing that jumps out: the cliffhanger to the 1st (I think) episode of Warriors of the Deep, where the Doctor falls into the water, barely gets his scalp wet, and Turlough quickly says, "Forget it...he's dead!"

Granted, there's nonsensical stuff throughout all of DW, but there seems to be a disproportionate amount of it in the JNT years. Some good stuff, too, but a lot of head-scratchers.