JJ Abrams Was Kinda Right About Trek Needing To Get Its Act Together

[Shaka Zulu]

Re: JJ Abrams Was Kinda Right About Trek Needing To Get Its Act Togeth

^And was done in one of the last major Star Wars comic book series from Dark Horse, Star Wars: Rebellion, which this new movie's plot has some similarities to.

 

[wulfio]

Re: JJ Abrams Was Kinda Right About Trek Needing To Get Its Act Togeth

That has less to do with canon and more to do with "Roddenberry's Vision." A concept which has become such a roadblock to any sort of real interesting storytelling in the modern era. Even after the franchise got rebooted and set up in an alternate timeline "Roddenberry's Vision" is still strictly adhered to, as evidenced by the Abramsverse sticking to the party line that Starfleet isn't a military despite the fact they function and operate like one.

Ironically, Roddenberry himself didn't really adhere to his so called vision and I don't think most fans even truly understand what his vision really was anyway.

I think a good writer can certainly create compelling stories based on Roddenberry's vision. Unless by current era you mean an era where each genre is nailed down to a science via formulas and tropes.

I'd agree that most fans don't understand what his vision is though. This board is pretty evident of that. So sticking to core Trek ideology seems futile if we want to continue the franchise.

 

[fireproof78]

Re: JJ Abrams Was Kinda Right About Trek Needing To Get Its Act Togeth

That has less to do with canon and more to do with "Roddenberry's Vision." A concept which has become such a roadblock to any sort of real interesting storytelling in the modern era. Even after the franchise got rebooted and set up in an alternate timeline "Roddenberry's Vision" is still strictly adhered to, as evidenced by the Abramsverse sticking to the party line that Starfleet isn't a military despite the fact they function and operate like one.

Ironically, Roddenberry himself didn't really adhere to his so called vision and I don't think most fans even truly understand what his vision really was anyway.

I think a good writer can certainly create compelling stories based on Roddenberry's vision. Unless by current era you mean an era where each genre is nailed down to a science via formulas and tropes.

I'd agree that most fans don't understand what his vision is though. This board is pretty evident of that. So sticking to core Trek ideology seems futile if we want to continue the franchise.

Well, the question of which version of the vision is being employed. Regardless, I think that Gene's sense of optimism about humanity's future, and that regardless of the problems faced by humanity, they would survive and work together.

Optimism, in my opinion, was key to TOS and TNG's success. I think it was also the key to Star Wars success, in a way. I think that optimism and a sense of exploration and adventure are the cornerstones to the Trek franchise that can be applied to any new show.

 

[Sci]

Re: JJ Abrams Was Kinda Right About Trek Needing To Get Its Act Togeth

I've heard reports that one thing that frustrated JJ Abrams was the lack of a unified vision of Trek overseeing the whole franchise. He had problems with the TV and movie divisions being separate and the video game that came out. Alot of people were upset that he wanted the merchandise for the old series discontinued, but he was mostly right.

Trek won't ever get to be as big as, say, Star Wars or Marvel because they're all over the place. You have the thing split up into different divisions and nobody knows what's what. People always say "hey the TV and movie stuff is separate and that's just how it is". But this is still the same company! It's Viacom. They can make it happen if there's the motivation to do so.

Uh, no. You are completely wrong about the entire corporate structure behind Star Trek's owners.

Star Trek was all being run by Rick Berman up until ENT was cancelled in 2005. In fact, the TNG films were being overseen by Berman at the same time DS9, VOY, and ENT were being produced. So there was a unifying voice at that time. At this time, Paramount Pictures was making the TNG movies, and Paramount Television was producing the shows, and both companies were part of Viacom.

In 2005, ENT was cancelled. Berman worked with Paramount on developing some Trek films, but these never left development and then his contract expired.

In 2006, Viacom split into two companies, now called Viacom and CBS Corporation. As a result of this split, CBS Corporation (through its CBS Studios subsidiary) owns Star Trek in general and the TV shows, while Viacom (through its Paramount Pictures subsidiary) owns the Trek films. Viacom continues to get to make the Trek films under exclusive license from CBS Corporation.

It was only after this split that Abrams began working with Viacom (via the Paramount Pictures subsidiary) to make ST09 and STID.

So, no, it's not all the same company anymore. When it was all the same company, the "divisions" were under unified management under Rick Berman. But nowadays, they are not separate "divisions" -- they are literally two entirely separate corporations, one of which owns Star Trek and the other of which owns the films based upon Star Trek and which retains license to make more films based upon Star Trek.

ETA: I should add for clarity that both CBS Corporation and Viacom are essentially controlled by National Amusements, Inc., a privately-owned company that owns controlling shares in both corporations. (National Amusements being itself owned by Summer Redstone and his daughter Shari.) However, both CBS Corporation and Viacom remain separate, publicly-traded corporations.

 

[dswynne1]

Re: JJ Abrams Was Kinda Right About Trek Needing To Get Its Act Togeth

Star Trek will never be as big as Marvel and Star Wars because it's intended for a smaller niche. Taking away the merchandise that appeals to that smaller niche while trying to broadcast it to a larger niche is kind of a middle finger to that smaller niche.

Bull. Tell that to the LucasFilms, and asked them how they managed things both before and after they were bought by Disney. In fact, asked Marvel Studios how they are doing, in spite of the fact that they can't produce their entire catalog due to certain film rights. IMO, splitting up the franchise was a bad mistake brought on by a turf war within Viacom years ago.

 

[eyeresist]

Re: JJ Abrams Was Kinda Right About Trek Needing To Get Its Act Togeth

^ It was indeed a ridiculous decision.

 

[ALF]

Re: JJ Abrams Was Kinda Right About Trek Needing To Get Its Act Togeth

Agreed - the usual corporate bullshit.

That's a miserable state of affairs and if I didn't have my own life to manage poorly I would suspend all activities in lieu of organizing a massive social media campaign aimed at publicly shaming Viacom and CBS for essentially growth-stunting Trek for the past decade intentionally. JJ was right to be irritated.

Sci's explanation isn't known well throughout modern Trek fandom but it certainly clarifies many things. I admit after Enterprise tanked, I took a break from Trek for a while and tuned out myself.
Good old Les, the Enterprise killer. Did anyone catch Les Moonves on Late Night With Steven Colbert last night? Maybe he should have left the switch on "The Mentalist."

I miss Trek on TV. The trap-of-the-week, etc. With a film it's really tricky because if the whole package doesn't work you're stuck with a 2 hour dud. In a 24 episode season of a series, you have 24 chances to 'get it right'. Bad Trek makes Good Trek by juxtaposition.

For example:
Argument: TNG's Justice.
Counter: TNG's Arsenal of Command.
I rest my case.

 

[topcat]

I think what the JJ verse is trying to do is take star trek back to "The Cage" in term of military thinking versus scientific discovery. Some parts of "star trek" were pure military.
In a way it seems JJ combined the cage pilot, with an early form of the TOS alternate universe.

However most people are against jj verse because it doesn't instantly give the same character relationships between everyone. We would love to see an actual kirk/uhura relationship happen. TOS episode with their kiss, was "alien forced them to do what they wanted to do anyways"
But mainly its been ship size, construction, and technology level. In some ways the PRE TOS jj verse Enterprise has a technology level combining TMP deflector/torpedoes and star trek nemesis internals.
Beyond seems to be a different type of movie.

 

[DarKush]

I can understand the desire to have a unified vision for the franchise going forward, but I don't think that needed to mean that the Prime Universe was wiped out necessarily, because there's still a ton of Prime Universe fans out there and they are likely the bulk that will be purchasing merchandise, and a good number still will be supporting the newer films, even if some might be gritting their teeth while doing so. Despite the widespread popularity (particularly with 09 Trek) and the increased global box office for both rebooted Treks, I don't know if the new movies have created a new fan base or even added committed new fans.

That being said I think the idea of a unified vision for the alternate universe, going forward, I have no problem with that. I wouldn't mind seeing the ongoing Trek comics being made canonical like Star Wars is doing with the Marvel comics, and also novels and video games based on the alternate universe.

Like others have pointed out though, Trek is different than Star Wars and I don't think eliminating the Prime Universe, with hundreds of hours of live-action programs and movies and beloved actors/characters, is the same as eliminating Star War's expanded universe of mostly novels, comics, and games. I think the genius of the alternate universe was allowing us to have both-the Prime adventures and the new adventures.

And personally I would like to see a return in some way of Prime Universe Trek, perhaps as Netflix or Straight to Video specials or something, that can be for the Prime Universe fans while continuing with the alternate universe.

 

[eyeresist]

And personally I would like to see a return in some way of Prime Universe Trek, perhaps as Netflix or Straight to Video specials or something, that can be for the Prime Universe fans while continuing with the alternate universe.

How would you tell the difference?

 

[topcat]

the Nuverse does a decent job of capturing the spirit of star trek. To bodly go and discover new things. That is why Enterprise failed.
They had nothing new to discover. At best they had the privilege to be the ship that first discovered Rigel or Risa.
They further hurt ENT with the whole eugenics/Klingon virus thing. Although they did show a huge map of the Klingon empire being comprised of what was loosely termed "different racial/genetic groups" and that only certain areas needed to have the DNA change done to them, but ultimate safety needed all groups to be changed.

Into Darkness made most of us angry with how the Klingons were turned into an 8 foot tall cross between Neanderthal and TNG Klingon.

 

[eyeresist]

Into Darkness made most of us angry with how the Klingons were turned into an 8 foot tall cross between Neanderthal and TNG Klingon.

"most of us"?

It's hardly ever brought up.

 

[DarKush]

How would you tell the difference?

I think most of us here, for example, can tell the difference. And for Prime Universe stuff, that will be targeted to a smaller, niche audience, like how DC animated films are made. A vast majority of people who will go see DC live-action films might not see the animated films or even know many, or any exist.

To elaborate further, the alternate universe stuff will be in the theatrical films and to me I would do a cartoon, novels, video games, toys, etc. as well and all that would get the wider distribution. But I would leave an avenue to get the money from the Prime Universe fans too, perhaps affixing a "Trek Prime" or "Prime Universe" label on that stuff like how Star Wars now uses the "Legends" label to differentiate between the expanded universe and the new canon.

Also Battlestar Galactica did something similar, to a lesser extent, in the comics, offering various stories in different continuities, even a Galactica 1980 series. To be fair though I can't recall if they were putting out book's in separate continuities at the same time though.

Sometimes I think studios underestimate the intelligence of the public. I think if people care and are invested enough they can tell the difference. Those who aren't, it's not likely they will care that there is still Prime Universe stuff out there anyway.

It also sort of reminds me of the fan films out now. Most people don't even know about them or care but they appeal to a small audience that can tell the difference between the canon Trek and these films. I don't see why Paramount and/or CBS not make some money putting out relatively cheaper (compared to blockbuster films) Prime Universe content to satiate fans of Prime Universe Trek.

 

[drt]

Yeah, I've wondered the same, as either lower budget live-action or animated (the latter particularly seems like it would be possible to get a fair number of the original actors to reprise their roles).

 

[eyeresist]

I think most of us here, for example, can tell the difference.

But you didn't answer the question! Do you mean that Prime Trek looks like it was made in the 60s or the 80s? Or do you think that every Nu character is an arrogant psychopath?

 

[DarKush]

But you didn't answer the question! Do you mean that Prime Trek looks like it was made in the 60s or the 80s? Or do you think that every Nu character is an arrogant psychopath?

I'm not sure where you're going with this. Not sure if you're being facetious or what. But taking this at face value, Prime Trek means it follows the original Prime characters and continuity. For an example, doing a Captain Sulu (George Takei) or Captain Worf movie, or a special for the various anniversaries of the various Trek programs. I don't get where the Nu character is an arrogant psychopath came from.

 

[DarKush]

Yeah, I've wondered the same, as either lower budget live-action or animated (the latter particularly seems like it would be possible to get a fair number of the original actors to reprise their roles).

I feel the same way. I mean if you've got some Trek veterans doing fan films, which they likely aren't getting paid a lot, if anything, just for the love of Trek and for the fans, then I could see many being enticed to do a Netflix-kind of show or movie, or something straight to video.

 

[plynch]

These things are being initiated not by a person with an idea and purpose looking for a network and company to back him or her; but by a corporation looking to increase shareholder value by producing something called Star Trek. So my hunch is they will do whatever is likeliest to meke the most money, regardless of pleasing fans. Perhaps the two will coincide.

 

[Terok Nor]

Why not open a wormhole between the PrimeVerse and the JJVerse and kill two birds with one stone? I'd love to see Kirk's Enterprise crew in the TNG era or Picard's Enterprise crew in the TOS era. There's no need to worry about contaminating the timelines because the JJVerse is an alternate reality just like the Mirror Universe. Why not make it part of the PrimeVerse by way of a gateway to bridge the two?

For me I'm never going to see the JJVerse as the main universe because it's just an alternate reality. Giving it the chance to regularly interact with the PrimeVerse and all the established history would validate it somewhat. Right now the Mirror Universe is more integral to the PrimeVerse than the JJVerse is. Characters from the Prime and Mirror verses regularly crossed over and had an impact on each universe. Prime Spock is the only character who even knows the JJVerse exists.

 

[Tesophius]

Personally, my problem with the Into Darkness movie is not the alternate telling of the ST history, but the fact that it is an action flick. Combat action is the weakest aspect of Star Trek "Evasive maneuvers!" haha. That's why the last movie was so boring, there is no exploration, no discovery, no clash of ideologies or philosophies, no eternal questions are being tackled. It's barely any different from watching some superhero movie.