"Jim, the Enterprise is 20 years old, we feel her day is done." My thoughts when seeing that scene.

[WarpFactorZ]

No, they didn't. They only had the century locked down, with the "In the 23rd century..." opening text. Star Trek didn't use a specific calendar year for the events of an episode or movie until TNG produced "The Neutral Zone." (And the stated date of 2364 likely only made it into the finished episode because of the 1988 Writer's Strike.)

Although no specific date was given, prior to airing TNG was promoted as being "78 years after the original Enterprise", and it was definitely in the 24th century. So, that provides a range of possible years, albeit a rather large one.

TWOK used 2283 as a date for the Romulan Ale that McCoy gave to Kirk, but it didn't provide any context for it outside of "Well, it takes this stuff a while to ferment." We aren't even told if the year is from a human or Romulan dating system.

It makes more sense for 2283 to be a stardate, actually. That puts it's production back in the original series, which had been established as 15 years earlier (and the stardate during Space Seed is actually 3100 or so, making the ale older than that).

 

[JonnyQuest037]

It makes more sense for 2283 to be a stardate, actually. That puts it's production back in the original series, which had been established as 15 years earlier (and the stardate during Space Seed is actually 3100 or so, making the ale older than that).

Yeah, that's another possibility. Probably the most logical one, actually.

 

[Jeyl]

Admirals are usually ALWAYS bad with numbers. Enterprise is 20 years old? Hmm.

The Menagerie Part 1
Spock: This is 13 years ago. The Enterprise.

And since that was Pike commanding at the time and Robert April has been recently canonized, it's logical to assume that the Enterprise was in service 18 years before Season One IF April and Pike each had a five-year mission.

Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan
Khan: Marooned here 15 years ago by Captain James T. Kirk.

15 + 18 = 33

So 30 years old would have been a better estimate if no one will accept the 2245 being the Enterprise's year of launch.

Also, Admirals suck with numbers. Remember that one episode in DS9 where the admiral thought the Eugenics Wars was 200 years ago instead of 300?

 

[Nyotarules]

Morrow was a dick.

So he was perfect Starfleet Admiral material

 

[STEPhon IT]

Although no specific date was given, prior to airing TNG was promoted as being "78 years after the original Enterprise", and it was definitely in the 24th century. So, that provides a range of possible years, albeit a rather large one.



It makes more sense for 2283 to be a stardate, actually. That puts it's production back in the original series, which had been established as 15 years earlier (and the stardate during Space Seed is actually 3100 or so, making the ale older than that).

Would this be 15 years Earth time or Ceti Alpha time? It would be hard for a space traveler to think of time inside the fish bowl of Earth time. The stardates done in the series and the films make sense.

 

[STEPhon IT]

The problem with that being the Yorktown is in Star Trek 4 and disabled by the probe.

I go with the A was put together using spare parts left over from other ships.

Why would Star Fleet need to Frankenstein something special as a Starship??? Come on, by the time Kirk and Co. were on films, Star Fleet is making ships as fast as Airplanes. There's nothing in the films which states 1701-A was the Yorktown. NOTHING. More retcons from inaccurate books from fans turning pro.

The Enterprise was a new starship.

 

[STEPhon IT]

Well what about the Captain of the Yorktown? Did Starfleet just Tell him: "Sorry Mr. Captain man, but Kirk just saved the planet so we want to give him your ship because it looks just like the Enterprise and we want to surprise him with it, here's an Oberth, a little I'm sorry card and a Stuffed Animal."

Maybe the next film's plot could have been him going after Kirk for getting his ship.....

Agreed, which is why it's best to ignore these elaborate literature of retroactivity. During that time Roddenberry was desperate to be relevant in some way because Paramount didn't want him anywhere near their property after the crapfest and over budgeted TMP. The stuff he was thinking and saying during that time were outlandish, but fans turning pro were gullible to write his non-sense in books.

I understand why the writers did it, because in order to make more movies, we (the audience) wouldn't have been happy unless it was Kirk and Co. on the ENTERPRISE so if they put them on Excelsior fans at the time would have been pissed.

That was Nimoy's decision, the director who has final say in his film and was a major star of the series of his own, overruling Harve Bennett, the producer, who wanted the new Enterprise to be in his own image--The Excelsior. I'm glad Nimoy did this because the Excelsior is an ugly looking ship along the lines of 1701-E, Oberth, and NX-01. It wouldn't be Star Trek if the real Enterprise was not seen by the end of the picture.

 

[GNDN18]

Admirals are usually ALWAYS bad with numbers.

Commodores, too.

MENDEZ: You ever met Chris Pike?
KIRK: When he was promoted to Fleet Captain.
MENDEZ: About your age. Big, handsome man, vital, active.

Apparently, Pike was 20 when he commanded the Enterprise.

 

[Nightowl1701]

^ I'm pretty sure that was supposed to be "(I met him when he was) about your age."

 

[Timo]

That's what the discussion was all about - what Pike had been, rather than (or in contrast to) what he was now. That is, Pike used to be Kirk in every respect (including age), and now he was a cripple and a has-been: the audience beware, this could happen to our hero, too!

Although I wouldn't be opposed to thinking that Pike was an exceptionally young starship commander, what with him still wearing Lieutenant braid at the job and all. Perhaps him being the youngest ever is what earned him that place on Saru's list of decorated COs?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[gottacook]

TWOK used 2283 as a date for the Romulan Ale that McCoy gave to Kirk, but it didn't provide any context for it outside of "Well, it takes this stuff a while to ferment."

Because of the way Kelley delivers that line, I always assumed he was being sarcastic - that is, 2283 is close to the current year (or is the current year) and in fact the stuff had been fermenting for only a brief time.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

Because of the way Kelley delivers that line, I always assumed he was being sarcastic - that is, 2283 is close to the current year (or is the current year) and in fact the stuff had been fermenting for only a brief time.

He probably skimped on Kirk's present and bought him some skunky Romulan Ale that was past it's "sell by" date.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Would this be 15 years Earth time or Ceti Alpha time?

Earth time, since the 15 years figure is also confirmed by Kirk ("There's a man out there I haven't seen for 15 years...").

Because of the way Kelley delivers that line, I always assumed he was being sarcastic - that is, 2283 is close to the current year (or is the current year) and in fact the stuff had been fermenting for only a brief time.

Yeah, that's how I interpret it in my TOS timeline. And if it's 2283 it works very nicely with "Space Seed" being late 2267 or early 2268.

And yeah, you generally can't go too wrong assuming that McCoy is being sarcastic.

He probably skimped on Kirk's present

Obviously, the major birthday present was the glasses. McCoy even says that it was tough to find a pair with the lenses intact. The Romulan Ale was the 23rd century equivalent of a box of Cuban cigars (Not that that's not a nice present, too, but the glasses were a bigger deal).

Someone once pointed out that Spock's and McCoy's gifts work perfectly together... Spock gets Kirk an antique copy of A Tale of Two Cities, and McCoy gets him the glasses he can read it with. It's a great metaphor for how well the three of them work together.

 

[FormerLurker]

McCoy even says that it was tough to find a pair with the lenses intact.

I think this is more of McCoy being sarcastic. He even stated that the lenses were to Kirk's prescription (though he didn't use that exact description). I think the only way for him to be serious is if he just went down to the local Rite Aid and bought a pair of Foster Grants.

 

[MAGolding]

Admirals are usually ALWAYS bad with numbers. Enterprise is 20 years old? Hmm.

The Menagerie Part 1
Spock: This is 13 years ago. The Enterprise.

And since that was Pike commanding at the time and Robert April has been recently canonized, it's logical to assume that the Enterprise was in service 18 years before Season One IF April and Pike each had a five-year mission.

Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan
Khan: Marooned here 15 years ago by Captain James T. Kirk.

15 + 18 = 33

So 30 years old would have been a better estimate if no one will accept the 2245 being the Enterprise's year of launch.

Also, Admirals suck with numbers. Remember that one episode in DS9 where the admiral thought the Eugenics Wars was 200 years ago instead of 300?

See also my post # 36.

If "Space Seed" is exactly 6.0 years BEFORE "Menagerie", the total age of the Enterprise in Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan should be 21.0 to 45.0 years. If "Space Seed" is exactly 6.0 years AFTER "Menagerie", the total age of the Enterprise in Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan should be 33.0 to 57.0 years. The halfway point in this age range is 39 years.

I suggested in post # 36 that Admiral Morrow might possibly have used a year that was very long compared to the years used by the other characters. Possibly the Admiral in DS9 was also using a year that was very long compared to years used by other characters.

STEPhon IT said:

Would this be 15 years Earth time or Ceti Alpha time? It would be hard for a space traveler to think of time inside the fish bowl of Earth time. The stardates done in the series and the films make sense.

It is quite possible that the Enterprise left some scientific instruments with Khan's group including possibly watches and clocks that kept the time on various planets accurately for many years, and thus that Khan knew how many Earth years or Starfleet years had passed, especially since Kirk also said it was 15 years.

 

[Timo]

Or then just about every Class M planet out there has the same length of year, due to the Class M'iness being exclusively the result of extensive terraforming by capable civilizations that long since standardized on the very set of parameters they also used on Earth.

(Okay, so certain festivals on Bajor aren't separated by 365 Earth days sharp. But nobody claims they'd be annual celebrations to being with.)

Whatever the degree of McCoy's sarcasm, Kirk himself seems to think that the year written on the bottle holds significance. Not the day or the month, but the year. It furthermore surprises him enough to make him read it out aloud.

Why would 2283 surprise Kirk?

1) Because the bottle is surprisingly old? Here on Earth, ale with a "best before" date different from the current year might be considered stale. But it might be considered expensive, too.

2) Because the bottle is surprisingly new? Perhaps the current year is 2282 or earlier, and the bottle is not to be opened until it has properly completed fermenting (which is a thing ales here on Earth do), making it an unexpected gift when Kirk thought it was for immediate consumption.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[MacLeod]

It is quite possible that the Enterprise left some scientific instruments with Khan's group including possibly watches and clocks that kept the time on various planets accurately for many years, and thus that Khan knew how many Earth years or Starfleet years had passed, especially since Kirk also said it was 15 years.

One might assume that the SS Botany Bay actually had some scientific instruments and at least one clock on-board.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

One might assume that the SS Botany Bay actually had some scientific instruments and at least one clock on-board.

But was the Botany Bay also marooned on the surface? You don't want to leave Khan and co. with a working ship. I thought it was just some cargo containers from the Enterprise. That doesn't explain the BB seat buckle, though, but maybe they kitbashed some living quarters.

 

[Timo]

Khan would have very little motivation to bring anything but weapons and personal effects over from the Botany Bay before he himself is shown ditching the ship and leaving her spinning in the wake of the Enterprise. And Kirk would have no motivation for going back for the ancient derelict.

But Khan's personal effects might well include stuff tied together with belts that feature the Botany Bay logo. Say, the very stack of books that eventually sits on the shelf next to the fateful belt.

(Yes, those are Kirk-era cargo containers, identical in shape to the ones seen in his cargo holds in ST:TMP, although there's some tomfoolery with the exact size. There's even a Federation logo on the outside, although it cannot be seen in the movie. And then a couple of items that say Starfleet on the inside, but those aren't exactly part of the containers if one wants to argue the point.)

Khan doesn't strike me as the sort of guy who would care about timekeeping systems other than the one pertaining to him personally. If Ceti Alpha V still has seasons after the disaster, then Khan counts his years by those. If it doesn't, Khan might very well resort to using Earth years. But those are more or less the only two plausible choices.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Maurice]

That was Nimoy's decision, the director who has final say in his film and was a major star of the series of his own, overruling Harve Bennett, the producer, who wanted the new Enterprise to be in his own image--The Excelsior. I'm glad Nimoy did this because the Excelsior is an ugly looking ship along the lines of 1701-E, Oberth, and NX-01. It wouldn't be Star Trek if the real Enterprise was not seen by the end of the picture.

Actually, in most films the producer has the final say and the final cut, unless the director negotiated to have those things. I doubt Nimoy had that much clout during ST3, but might've had it in ST4.