Jelico

[Green Shirt]

Photon said:
Did Jelico have SUCH an asshole to get the mission accomplised.

Well, he got the job done and was home in time for corn flakes.

 

[2of1million]

I like Jellico for one reason...ok 2 reasons. The first is he got Troi to wear a real uniform. And the 2nd reason: "Get it done!!"

 

[Unicron]

3D Master said:

I never said there wasn't, I said there was no such difference between Jellico's old ship and the Enterprise. The Enterprise is only bigger - but it's the same type of ship, with the same armaments, the battle function.

The Cairo was a decades old heavy cruiser that was about a third smaller than the Enterprise, which was a top of the line large explorer. They most clearly do not have the same armaments or function, nor does the Cairo have the same capabilities as the Galaxy does. I don't know enough about how the TNG Excelsiors were refitted because no hard details were given in the show, but even then I doubt they'd be in the same category.

And what's it with you turning TNG episodes into a Bush fest?

I merely used Bush as an example, since a lot of your arguments have been based on Jellico being right just cause he was in charge.

Guy Gardener said:
Captain Erika Benteen lead an Excelsior refit into battle against Worf commanding the Defiant and won in Paradise Lost. Or course Worf didn’t want to shoot back, but he still lost. The Excelsior’s were designed to do the same job as the Galaxy’s back when the Federation was a little smaller and the bad guys where equally technically unsophisticated… sans families and obviously carrying less “Soldiers” but they’re both capable of equally interesting tactical missions. Enterprise is the Flag Ship however which carries more weight in Diplomatic Missions.

Actually, the Lakota and the Defiant inflicted heavy damage on each other despite Worf's reluctance, and Benteen reported that the Defiant had managed to inflict some good blows. Neither Benteen nor Worf was willing to actually disable the other. The Lakota seems to have been a unique ship anyway, since the model has never been used again.

 

[jimbo1973]

I agree about Jellico..a Hearing impairment kept me from being in the military BUT having seved in the Civil Air Patrol gave me a good idea of a military mindset...Jellico was doing what had to be done..thats all.. Also would like to credit the casting of Jellico..Ronny Cox was PERFECT for this role as these are the kind of rolls he alwaysplayed..the same with Terry O'quinn..Congrats on the emmy!!! Playing Admiral pressman..

 

[3D Master]

John_Picard said:

3D Master said:

John_Picard said:

3D Master said:
Wrong. The only difference between Jellico's old ship and the Enterprise, is that the latter is bigger. It's NOTHING like a battleship and a carrier. They're both battle ships.

Actually, there is a BIG difference between commanding a carrier and command of a smaller style ship. Carrier Captains are required to have the following experience:
1) Served as a pilot, RIO (Radar-Intercept-Officer), etc
2) Served as the Commanding Officer of a supply replenishment ship (AO, AFS, AOE, etc).

Submarine commanders, as is evident, are ONLY tapped from the submarine community.

I never said there wasn't, I said there was no such difference between Jellico's old ship and the Enterprise. The Enterprise is only bigger - but it's the same type of ship, with the same armaments, the battle function.

Yes, you did. You tried to compare apples to oranges, but feel free to backpedal.

No, I didn't.

Unicron said:
I merely used Bush as an example, since a lot of your arguments have been based on Jellico being right just cause he was in charge.

No. He was right because he was right. If he wasn't in charge, he'd still right.

 

[Nebusj]

Unicron said:

3D Master said:
Wrong. The only difference between Jellico's old ship and the Enterprise, is that the latter is bigger. It's NOTHING like a battleship and a carrier. They're both battle shps.

So the Excelsior class Cairo, which was Jellico's command, is somehow identical to the Galaxy class aside from size? How do you figure that?

Ah, but Jellico had to be reasonably qualified to command a Galaxy-class starship. The Federation, after all, assumed that the Cardassians were aware of high-profile changes of command, and if Jellico were clearly unqualified to command a starship like the Enterprise that would be proof of a Federation scam in the works. As it was this gave the Cardassians reason to suspect, but nothing more.

(If it were just a matter of having a Uniquely Supremestest Bestest Ever Cardassian Expert negotiating and a Galaxy-class ship there to show strength, the problem could be settled by having both the Enterprise and the Cairo meeting the Cardassians, never mind the visual effects budget.)

Sorry, but the crew are not drones who exist to obey the captain's every whim. Did you ever see Crimson Tide? I'm not saying Jellico ever acted inappropriate enough to warrant a mutiny or something that dire, but the crew has the right to refuse to follow an order if it should be unwarranted or potentially illegal. By your logic, nobody should be able to disagree with Bush just cause he's president.

By the same token, though, ``switch from a three-shift to a four-shift rotation schedule'' falls a bit short of the classic reasons for mutiny. If you want to get away with rebelling against the captain it's useful to have an example of the captain giving orders that are in some way not perfectly reasonable and well within your ability to complete.

 

[Unicron]

I'm not questioning Jellico's qualifications; I don't doubt the guy was experienced and as I said earlier, we didn't get to see more of him as a regular person. It's some of his command decisions and his overall attitude I was not impressed with.

But as I said before, I need to rewatch the ep again and refresh my memory. It's far from perfect, and it may be that some of what I've said here is indeed wrong.

 

[DWF]

Jellico was a pain in the rear and we don't know how good of a military commander he could have been since we neer saw him under fire but he did bring some conflict on the show and should answer some of the complaints about the lack of conflict on the show.

Ronny Cox played him as a good guy and when he plays good guys he tried to find the dark edges on them and his had plenty of experience on Stargate SG1 playing another pain the rear Kinsey.

It would been intesting I guess to see him on DS9 fighting the Dominion War, but in many ways the Dominion War was disappointing for me.

 

[Dyabolikal]

3D Master said:
You're an idiot. What happened in "The Wounded" had nothing to do with anything. The Federation has handled the Cardassians wrong from day one, the same way they treated the Klingons wrong - it seems they it takes ten times making a mistake before they learn from them. The Wounded and all the Cardassians continuing to try and fight the Federation, are exactly because the Federation never showed them any resolve. They always only just tossed the Cardassians back out of Federation space, and then did nothing more. To the Cardassians that was seen as very simple: the Federation is weak, next time we can take 'em. The Federation should have crushed the invading force with an overwhelming one of their own, than further invade the Cardassians a couple of lightyears, destroying any military force in the area, and then setting it up as a neutral zone, and starting "negotiations", more like stating terms. You prove you can better yourselves in the next 20 years you can have the neutral zone back, now on to the rest - and if you disagree, well, than we continue until every single last one of your military ships are destroyed, and we'll have to replace your government.

It's always so easy to plan out on paper, isn't it?

 

[J.T.B.]

Timo said:
The interesting point about this is that a Royal Navy captain of the 1890s would be expected to be capable of commanding either type of ship (the 1860s types were still in stock thirty years later) in the threat environment of his day. This wasn't always smart policy: captains unfamiliar with their rides made fatal misjudgements and lost their ships in collisions and moderate weather topple-overs. Had the RN gone to war at the time, it would probably have sank all on its own, no enemy needed.

A rather preposterous characterization of the Victorian Royal Navy. The fact that 1860s warships were still on the lists does not mean that they should be compared to front line vessels of 1890. They were either in reserve, without crews and much equipment, or on out of the way stations, under command of junior captains. And this would mostly apply to cruising vessels, not the battle line: With a large overseas empire, vessels that were not suitable for the main fleet could still do policing work. The battle squadrons and their scouting forces were kept as up to date as possible.

Though there were some serious peacetime accidents, they can not generally be ascribed to captains unfamiliar with their commands. I assume you refer to the losses of HMS Captain and Victoria. In the case of Captain, she had an inherent design flaw of too much rigging and sail area for her low hull. The captain did share some responsibility for carrying too much sail, but the design and testing process was really to blame. Victoria was rammed due to confused maneuvering orders from the fleet commander. The captain did his best to get the admiral to change the order, but he did not. Likewise the admiral and captain in the other ship carried out the unsound order. The failure was of the rigid system of command and control, not with any unfamiliarity with the ship's technology.

It's easy to look at a fleet on paper and say the RN was unprepared for war, but war against whom? If you look at any of the other big navies of the same period, you will find that the RN outclasses them all, and any advance in another fleet is quickly countered by Britain, usually with something better.

However, there were competent captains back then who knew several ship types in and out (no mean feat in a fleet that thought that "standardization" was a vile French word).

It was no virtue to standardize in most of the late 1800s, because technologies were changing at an unheard of pace. Propulsion machinery, gun coustruction, propellant chemistry, metallurgy, optics, hydraulics, electricity... If you built more than a few big ships on a standardized plan in the 1860s and '70s, you were risking a very expensive premature obsolescence. It wasn't until around 1890 that things had stabilized to a point where a large class of standardized battleships, the Royal Sovereigns, made good sense.

As for Jellicoe's qualifications, I agree with what Nebusj wrote. Unless we presume that Starfleet Command is utterly incompetent, Jellicoe is qualified to command a Galaxy class. As I have expressed before, the way Riker was written in that episode was a disgrace. The commanding officer doesn't just have all the authority, he/she has all the responsibility. Responsibility for every life and every part of the ship, all the time. Even if somebody in some never-seen maintenance department doesn't do their job right and the ship is damaged, it's still the captain's ass. This kind of burden does not tend to make people cheery and lighthearted. But, most of the time, if they speak to you in a short or peremptpory way, it is no reflection on you, and if they chew your ass out a little, it is immediately forgotten as long as you take care of business. Jellicoe was not unfair, or petty, or vindictive, or arbitrary or show any other qualities that make for a bad leader. He just knew what he wanted done and wasn't touchy-feely about how he expressed himself. Professionals should have dealt with his style better than was shown in the episode.

--Justin

 

[T'Cal]

Riker was a cry-baby!

I really wished Jellico as played by Ronny Cox had been the admiral giving orders to Picard in NEM. I like Mulgrew but her character's high rank made no sense, as did much of the film. Anyway, I always liked Jellico and wish we had seen more of him.

 

[SeerSGB]

We should have got Jellico in DS9. You know he'd show Ross how it was done.