Jelico
- Thread starter Photon
- Start date
There are times when I'm like Jellicoe... mostly when a deadline is coming up and I have to motivate the non self starter employees under me... Generally, I'm friendly and cheerful, but there are times...
"Roger, you need to process these files"
"but Miss Anna, I heard Caroline is treating people to lunch and I have to do my hand excercises"
"Roger, just because Mr Mears did you a favor and got you this job doesn't mean I have to put up with your goldbricking. Choice time! Files! Door! What's it gonna be?"
Then he grumbles about the 'bossy broad' and brags to his buddies how much of a slacker he was at his other jobs, but he does start on the files.
Another point... Jellicoe chatted for a moment with the crewman in Ten Forward... although tough he is more approachable than Picard is, espicially note the reaction shot of Picard in this scene.
"Roger, you need to process these files"
"but Miss Anna, I heard Caroline is treating people to lunch and I have to do my hand excercises"
"Roger, just because Mr Mears did you a favor and got you this job doesn't mean I have to put up with your goldbricking. Choice time! Files! Door! What's it gonna be?"
Then he grumbles about the 'bossy broad' and brags to his buddies how much of a slacker he was at his other jobs, but he does start on the files.
Another point... Jellicoe chatted for a moment with the crewman in Ten Forward... although tough he is more approachable than Picard is, espicially note the reaction shot of Picard in this scene.
Jellico isn't an asshole -- at least, no more so than Riker and Co. were. I think it's fair to say that both should have made more of an effort to accommodate the other. But I also think it's fair to say that the D crew behaved unprofessionally and selfishly. And at the end, when Jellico extended them the professional courtesy of saying that it had been an honour to serve with them, they were silent. It was pretty disgusting on the TNG characters' parts.
Jellico reminded me of just how unrealistic trek can be in terms of military service. Jellico is VERY MUCH a true to form soldier and military officer. When you're given an order - no matter how farfetched - it's your duty to carry it out not complain about it or how unfair it is. This episode is one of my favorites, but it's bittersweet for me now because I realize how unprofessional these people are. Despite popular belief the Federation Starfleet IS a military organization afterall. While not expressly said on TNG, in DS9 they refer to the Federation Navy several times.
The only commander on trek that is even remotely true to form is Sisko.
The only commander on trek that is even remotely true to form is Sisko.
But you are speaking in terms of military organizations of today.
By the time Starfleet is happening, there hasn' been any internal Earth wars for some time. It is an entirely different culture by then.
In the future, it is expected to question farfetched orders and to voice opinions.
By the time Starfleet is happening, there hasn' been any internal Earth wars for some time. It is an entirely different culture by then.
In the future, it is expected to question farfetched orders and to voice opinions.
No, he's speaking in reference to any military organization -- and the organization that holds the monopoly on state-committed violence and warfare is, indeed, the military, whether it's called the "United States Army" or "the Federation Starfleet."
Bullshit. Earth's been fighting wars for decades -- as United Earth, first against the Xindi, then against the Romulans, and then, as part of the Federation, against the Klingons, Romulans, Tholians, Gorn, Tzenkethi, and Cardassians. In fact, it's pretty hard to find a period in Trek history where the Federation was not on the verge of war or at war with one of its neighbors. And the psychological requirements of fighting a war are going to be the same, irrelevent of the century, because you need obedience in a situation where chaos can cause death.
And please do recall that Starfleet was on the verge of war with the Cardassians in "Chain of Command."
The internal workings and valued personal traits of a "military organization" aren't a constant across the human history, though.
At some points, a model where orders are followed without question has been favored. At other points, the most effective military has been one based on loosely associated marauding parties or individual high-performance combatants who act in self-interest and without joint discipline. Some of the most potent militaries in medieval Europe were based on bought loyalty, requiring managerial skills of a very specific sort.
IMHO, there is no telling which sort of structure will best hold together a future military, especially in the curious circumstances of the Trek universe. Certain concepts of loyalty and hierarchy might still be useful, while others could bo counterproductive. Today, only the high leaders of nations have their fingers on doomsday buttons. In the 24th century, every infantryman essentially has a button of his own. Telling him to jump and not ask anything beyond "how high" simply might not be the psychologically, tactically and economically smart thing to do.
The lower-ranking soldiers of today typically perform duties that call for intelligence without morals or emotional weaknesses. Such a combination is not available anywhere in the known universe, so militaries pick intelligent people, deny them the application of morals, and tell them to suck in their emotions. But the fictional 24th century (and even the real 21st) is explicitly different from all the past of mankind: intelligence can be built into machinery without adding morality or emotion. In such a radically novel environment, the most efficient soldier might be the one that leaves intelligence at home and principally applies morals and emotions.
I mean, if Jellico wanted a four-shift ship, he could have pressed a button and the computers would have done that for him. Riker would be a pure dunsel in that respect, a man without any useful role aboard the ship. It is by no means impossible that the new important role for such a middleman in the 24th century military indeed is to provide maximal human inertia, necessary for the smooth functioning of an overautomated military machine.
It would be interesting indeed to see an organization based on such values, and exploring the delightful pros and cons of the exotique. Of course, Starfleet as portrayed is not as futuristic as it perhaps ought to be (or possibly indeed ought to, given that militaries are famous for their opposition to change), and "Chain of Command" thus plays out very much like a 20th century military confrontation between a competent commanding officer and an incompetent XO. But one should not categorically claim "militaries will always be the same" and fail to understand why they have been the same until now.
Timo Saloniemi
At some points, a model where orders are followed without question has been favored. At other points, the most effective military has been one based on loosely associated marauding parties or individual high-performance combatants who act in self-interest and without joint discipline. Some of the most potent militaries in medieval Europe were based on bought loyalty, requiring managerial skills of a very specific sort.
IMHO, there is no telling which sort of structure will best hold together a future military, especially in the curious circumstances of the Trek universe. Certain concepts of loyalty and hierarchy might still be useful, while others could bo counterproductive. Today, only the high leaders of nations have their fingers on doomsday buttons. In the 24th century, every infantryman essentially has a button of his own. Telling him to jump and not ask anything beyond "how high" simply might not be the psychologically, tactically and economically smart thing to do.
The lower-ranking soldiers of today typically perform duties that call for intelligence without morals or emotional weaknesses. Such a combination is not available anywhere in the known universe, so militaries pick intelligent people, deny them the application of morals, and tell them to suck in their emotions. But the fictional 24th century (and even the real 21st) is explicitly different from all the past of mankind: intelligence can be built into machinery without adding morality or emotion. In such a radically novel environment, the most efficient soldier might be the one that leaves intelligence at home and principally applies morals and emotions.
I mean, if Jellico wanted a four-shift ship, he could have pressed a button and the computers would have done that for him. Riker would be a pure dunsel in that respect, a man without any useful role aboard the ship. It is by no means impossible that the new important role for such a middleman in the 24th century military indeed is to provide maximal human inertia, necessary for the smooth functioning of an overautomated military machine.
It would be interesting indeed to see an organization based on such values, and exploring the delightful pros and cons of the exotique. Of course, Starfleet as portrayed is not as futuristic as it perhaps ought to be (or possibly indeed ought to, given that militaries are famous for their opposition to change), and "Chain of Command" thus plays out very much like a 20th century military confrontation between a competent commanding officer and an incompetent XO. But one should not categorically claim "militaries will always be the same" and fail to understand why they have been the same until now.
Timo Saloniemi
I think essentially what this boils down to is the difference in views of what Star Trek ought to be. Too many people want to turn it into Star Wars or Space Invaders. They forget that in Trek, there has been no INTERNAL Earth wars for a long time, no poverty, and the violent undertones of the major religions have been put in museums where they belong.
The crew of the Enterprise were not trained to be "good soldiers". They were trained to be competent, and professional, but they don't come from the same boot-licking world we live in. The Galaxy-class ships are not military vessels. It is an exploration ship with defensive capabilities.
The crew of the Enterprise were not trained to be "good soldiers". They were trained to be competent, and professional, but they don't come from the same boot-licking world we live in. The Galaxy-class ships are not military vessels. It is an exploration ship with defensive capabilities.
Here we go again...
Timo brings up some good points. Militaries do change over time. However, the basic concept is still the same. I would respectfully disagree with his contention though that lower ranked soldiers/sailors/airmen today are expected to carry out their orders without regard to morals or emotion. Having served as one of the lower ranks, one of the things that was drilled into me was that you refuse to execute illegal orders. Morals are very much taken into account in the form of rules of engagement and other such policies.
As I've said before, people tend to take sides in the pro- versus anti- Jellico debate based on their understanding of and appreciation of the military. Those who understand what the military is, what it's function is, and why it works the way it does tend to favor Jellico. We understand where he's coming from and how his mind operates. Those who do not understand the military or its functions or who dislike the military tend to dislike Jellico because in many ways he embodies everything they dislike about the military. Of course, there are exceptions to every rule, but I think that summation pretty much sums up the two schools of thought.
Timo brings up some good points. Militaries do change over time. However, the basic concept is still the same. I would respectfully disagree with his contention though that lower ranked soldiers/sailors/airmen today are expected to carry out their orders without regard to morals or emotion. Having served as one of the lower ranks, one of the things that was drilled into me was that you refuse to execute illegal orders. Morals are very much taken into account in the form of rules of engagement and other such policies.
As I've said before, people tend to take sides in the pro- versus anti- Jellico debate based on their understanding of and appreciation of the military. Those who understand what the military is, what it's function is, and why it works the way it does tend to favor Jellico. We understand where he's coming from and how his mind operates. Those who do not understand the military or its functions or who dislike the military tend to dislike Jellico because in many ways he embodies everything they dislike about the military. Of course, there are exceptions to every rule, but I think that summation pretty much sums up the two schools of thought.
Norrin Radd
Vice Admiral
I think Jellico had an especially hard time due to the circumstances unique to this episode. Picard was a hard ass in the first episodes, but he had time to earn the respect of the crew while Jellico didn't. Respect is earned and not given, goes the cliche, and I think it applies in this case. The crew (and us) didn't have time to see the "good" side of Jellico until the very end.
Captain Jellico was a kick ass CO and a credit to Starfleet. If the ENT crew had supported him like they should have they would have been kick ass as well.
My opinion of that episode is that the ENT crew whined WAAAAY too much and did indeed drop the ball executing the captain's orders. It was not a very good example of how professional officers should behave. Just because Picard wasn't there doesn't mean that they shouldn't have shown Jellico the exact same courtesy they would have shown Picard. What they did was actually an insult to Picard as he claimed to be leaving Jellico an outstanding crew.
I thought the episode was a great one, even taking into account the piss poor writing of the TNG cast.
My opinion of that episode is that the ENT crew whined WAAAAY too much and did indeed drop the ball executing the captain's orders. It was not a very good example of how professional officers should behave. Just because Picard wasn't there doesn't mean that they shouldn't have shown Jellico the exact same courtesy they would have shown Picard. What they did was actually an insult to Picard as he claimed to be leaving Jellico an outstanding crew.
I thought the episode was a great one, even taking into account the piss poor writing of the TNG cast.
^ I'd have to rewatch the ep again, but I seem to recall that the crew's complaint was not Jellico giving them more work than they often had under Picard. Geordi says he gave the engineering section more work and insufficient time to do it (at least I think that's correct - I don't want to confuse Geordi's complaints in this ep with his complaints about Kurn's exchange much earlier). 
Jellico also seemed unwilling to actually ask Riker and the other senior officers how to modify the shifts; he just changed them and expected the crew to automatically agree.
To be fair, I do consider Jellico a capable captain. I believe he could have been written better. The thing that bothers me most about some of his scenes is not his tendency to be an asshole, but the fact that he seemed to be basing some of his command decisions on his personal mistrust of the Cardassians. I got the impression he would have been glad to fight another war against the evil Cardies, and a good example of this is how he decided it'd be good diplomacy to piss off the Cardassian captain waiting in the lounge.
Jellico also seemed unwilling to actually ask Riker and the other senior officers how to modify the shifts; he just changed them and expected the crew to automatically agree.To be fair, I do consider Jellico a capable captain. I believe he could have been written better. The thing that bothers me most about some of his scenes is not his tendency to be an asshole, but the fact that he seemed to be basing some of his command decisions on his personal mistrust of the Cardassians. I got the impression he would have been glad to fight another war against the evil Cardies, and a good example of this is how he decided it'd be good diplomacy to piss off the Cardassian captain waiting in the lounge.
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