Here I should mention that, though they appear to be "sticking to their guns" with the released episode order, there are several continuity problems with it and as such certain episodes should be moved around in order for everything to make sense.
Jar Jar Binks and Anakin Skywalker... am I the only one who understood what George Lucas made?
- Thread starter VulcanMindBlown
- Start date
Here I should mention that, though they appear to be "sticking to their guns" with the released episode order, there are several continuity problems with it and as such certain episodes should be moved around in order for everything to make sense.
I really think the biggest problem with Anakin in TPM was just that Jake Lloyd wasn't a very good actor. Later, I believe Hayden Christensen actually did a great job, but the writing failed him. Like cutting down the Younglings. What a ham-fisted and over the top way to make it clear he had become a "villain" - when that's something that I frankly just don't believe even ESB Vader would have done. Turned the kids over to the Emperor for training, sure - but not wiping them out like that.
And all of my problems with Jar Jar can be fixed with ONE line of dialog that I just go ahead and pretend he said: right after he said the reason Boss Nass exiled him was because "Meesa Clumsy" I mentally add him saying "I fell on his daughter" under his breath while Qui Gon has already started talking again. Changes him from a complete idiot into an idiot scoundrel, which is somehow more acceptable.
I still wish he had gotten the rumored scene where he dies trying to defend Padme and the twins from Vader. Not because I care if he's dead, but because I think it would have put an end to the crazy hate for his character.
I kind of think that the point was to make Darth Vader/Anakin as pathetic and evil as possible by the 3rd film. In AOTC he wiped out sand people children so it showed that Anakin didn't have the self control of the force early on. Killing the younglings was to show just how evil Vader was. Ovet the top? Depends on who you ask but I think Lucas took the "These are kids movies" seriously from old time fans and made the 3rd much darker to compensate. Did you admire Vader before the prequel? He did choke the life out of rebels and his own people several times. He was part of the Empire that slaughtered millions of men, women and children on alderaan also. Not sure how him killing younglings changed the character for you.
The people we saw him kill in the OT were either valid enemy combatants (1 Jedi, 1 uniformed Rebel captain), or people who had given their lives to the Empire (a couple of Admirals, the Emperor himself). The younglings weren't even Padawans yet - killing them was like killing elementary school students because they *might* grow up to be a problem. Not okay even by standards of war.
But Vader was pure evil incarnate. There were no rules for him. He never followed the standards of war and neither did the Empire.
What standards are we applying here? Because, as noted above, in the OT, most of his targets were legitimate military targets. Only Alderaan wasn't, and while Vader was complicit, it was Tarkin's initiative and attack.
Also, if he is evil incarnate, then that takes away from the Tragedy of Anakin Skywalker, doesn't it? The whole idea, as informed from the end of ESB and through ROTJ, is that Anakin can be redeemed. It's an interesting twist, but actually showcases, retroactively, Vader in a different light than before.
Also, as much as I might disagree with the presentation in ROTS, Vader's initial push is for order and peace through force. It might still be dictatorial but there is still a certain law to it, I would say.
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The younglings (as shown in TCW) could best a Clone Trooper and many could use a lightsaber. Anakin knew they could be dangerous, but also I think he figured they were better off dead than in Palpatine's hands, as Anakin had seen a touch of what the Sith Lord had planned for young force sensitives who he could take before the Jedi got to them. In Vader's mind, they were better off dead than orphans under Palpatine. Vader woud not let them escape as that would be found out and his own fear that Palpatine would use that to hold back the knowledge Anakin wanted so desperately...the knowledge to save his wife's life.
The younglings to the Emperor were military targets and Vader followed the orders. Vader had no problem protecting the Death Star and it being used to destroy Alderaan which housed millions or billions of children. Since the Dark Side twisted Anakin and he basically ceased to exist when the dark side took over he could still be redeemed by coming back to the light side. Lucas wanted to make Anakin get more pathetic as he was being swallowed into the dark side on his journey to beome vader. As you said on your last line Vader might be dictatorial but there was a certain law to it. So you basically admired pre prequel Vader as a badass sith that just wanted to keep law to the galaxy but once you found out he had to personally kill younglings and not let the Death Star do it that went to far in the badassery department?
So, acknowledging a potential law to his behavior means I admire him? I am interested to know how you came to that conclusion from my statement.
Beyond that, there is no admiration for Vader from me. I personally never understood his popularity as a villain, and did not find him particularly interesting, aside from being a Dark Lord. ROTJ gave him some more depth and the PT attempted to do so with him being about order and more dictatorial means of government.
I don't think Lucas wanted to make him more pathetic, though I'll admit that I don't think he succeeded in giving more depth to the character either.
Beyond that, not sure what else to say.
Care to share? I've been meaning to re-watch it in chrono-order some time soon, and would appreciate a heads-up for correcting their list.
Okay, here's what I know:
( spoilers for people who haven't watched the episodes in question )
So in other words within the official chronological episode order 204-214 would change to 204-208, 211, 209-210, 212-214.
So, the official chronological order of episodes in seasons 5 & 6 is 502-513, 501, 514-520, 601-613, but if we move back the season 6 Clovis arc ( episodes 605-607 ) it changes to 502-513, 605-607, 501, 514-520, 601-604, 608-613.
There could be other issues, those are just the ones I know about.
( spoilers for people who haven't watched the episodes in question )
In season 2, Lightsaber Lost should be before the Grievous episodes because in Grievous Intrigue when the Jedi are standing around the hologram of Eeth Koth getting tortured, Ahsoka is with Tera Sinube and some younglings. But in Lightsaber Lost, Ahsoka does not know who Tera Sinube is and meets him for the first time.
So in other words within the official chronological episode order 204-214 would change to 204-208, 211, 209-210, 212-214.
Also, during the Clovis arc of season 6, Satine is referred to as though she is still alive. Thus some people believe that the arc should be placed with the season 5 episodes prior to Satine's death.
So, the official chronological order of episodes in seasons 5 & 6 is 502-513, 501, 514-520, 601-613, but if we move back the season 6 Clovis arc ( episodes 605-607 ) it changes to 502-513, 605-607, 501, 514-520, 601-604, 608-613.
There could be other issues, those are just the ones I know about.
Exactly what do you mean?
I disagree. I believe Lucas gave Anakin a great deal of depth. Even more, I thought he did a good job in using Anakin as the main example of how anyone can give in to evil for any reason (including love), as long as the right emotional button is pushed. But Anakin was not the only example of this scenario. I noticed how most of the major characters had traits that could have easily led them to evil - in both the PT and the OT. Anyone can give in to evil for whatever reason; and Anakin is the perfect example of this possibility.
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Likely meaning that Anakin wasn't being evil for the sake of being evil (which Palpatine can probable be seen as doing). Anakin was for a strong central government that could enforce law and order on the people. Even those that disagreed with his ideas of law and order. The Empire was basically that, but more oppressive than what the Jedi Anakin Skywalker would have been comfortable. Especially when it comes to slavery.
@Ithekro Sums up pretty well, but basically Anakin was for order. He was more dictatorial about it in his conversations with Padme in AOTC, but there was still a sense of order that he wanted to maintain.
Ok, I don't think it was presented well. I don't believe Anakin is a real person with those motivations to drive him to do something evil for the sake of something good.
I'm glad you see all of that, but I get more from Luke in the OT than I do Anakin from the PT. Luke feels more like a real person, more like a real character, with history and motivations that are identifiable and relatable.
Thank you. That summarizes my thoughts well for the most part.
Though, I don't think it was as big of a leap for Anakin to move to evil, since the good we see him do is rather limited.
It was love and fear of losing the woman he loved that drove Anakin to compromise himself by becoming Palpatine's apprentice. In fact, his killing of the Tuskens was motivated by their torture and murder of his mother. You don't see a pattern here?
You know what? Never mind. You're entitled to your opinions like everyone else. Even if I don't agree with them.
I buy in to those motivations in those moments. The rest of his behaviors overshadow his supposed "good guy" status. Anakin doesn't feel like a good guy who became bad for good reasons. He feels like a one dimensional cardboard cutout who wanted power, whined his way through a lot, and eventually just shrugged his shoulders and sided with Palpatine. The brief moments like the Tusken slaughter and the nightmare scenes just don't add up enough to craft a believable character who slowly went dark.
Honestly, I struggle with seeing most of the characters as characters in the PT. I don't see Anakin the "pilot, cunning warrior and good friend" that Obi-Wan describes- I see a plot device. Which is sad because his story has so much potential, and I felt more sympathy for him reading the ROTS novel than I ever garnered from the films.
I appreciate the back and forth though. It can be frustrating to exchange these ideas within fandom that are polar opposites. I don't "hate" the prequels or Anakin. I just feel disappointed at the wasted potential.
Take that for what it's worth.
fireproof78 said:
Anakin's history and motivations could not have been more identifiable if the film had periodically paused Suicide Squad style to summarize them in on screen text and theater employees had worked their way up and down the various rows whispering them in people's ears. Not liking something does not equate to the film not explaining it.
As far as 'relatable' is concerned, arguably one would need to have once been placed in situations at least distantly analogous to Anakin's own. If, in your case, that does not apply, well, more power to you then, I guess.
fireproof78 said:
That sounds more like the version of the story which various people on the internet have pined for: a turn to the dark side based on nothing more than "I want power! GRRR!!!" In other words, it sounds like fanfic. The "eventually just shrugged his shoulders" bit doesn't describe the content of the film we actually got. In ROTS Anakin only sides with Palpatine when forced to choose between Padme and the Jedi. After what happens to Mace there is no going back.
His thirst for power, resent of authority, and anger over the limitations placed on him was exactly what made him unfit to be a Jedi Master though. Things that no doubt had been pointed out to him. He knows what he is doing is wrong, even after he helps kill Mace, yet he does indeed shrug his shoulders and kill a bunch of kids anyways. He isn't possessed by the dark side, he isn't overcome by another personality, he just gives in to the idea that he is going to be Palpatine's sword in the hopes that whatever he has been telling him isn't a total lie. Then in the duel with Obi-Wan he is back to being angry and petulant, whining that he didn't get what he wanted and just childishly throwing all the blame on the Jedi in spite of the fact that he knows they were right all along. It's just bad storytelling with a completely unsympathetic and idiotic character in a movie full of unsympathetic idiots.