Janice Lester grievance....

[Tenacity]

and Enterprise was a past that never actually occurred so simple

Just one of Riker's holo-programs.

Number One was the defacto captain whenever Pike was off the ship

When the Captain's off the ship, they're still the Captain. The First Officer would be officer of the deck, nothing more.

Number would have became Captain only if Pike died, was declared dead, or was formally abandoned.

But would the Starfleet of the day have retained her as the ship's commanding officer?

Pike's statement about not beiny used to having a women on the bridge is so odd because there are exactly three women on the bridge when he says that.

Having women on the bridge of his starship might have been a new thing , and he still wasn't used to it?

 

[Mytran]

Pike's statement about not beiny used to having a women on the bridge is so odd because there are exactly three women on the bridge when he says that.

Which means that his statement must mean something other than the literal interpretation.
What seems to annoy Pike is that a junior Yeoman is getting under his feet, despite what he told her earlier. Maybe his former Yeoman only gave him paperwork in his cabin? If so, we can suppose that Pike had intended to say "I can't get used to having a young woman Yeoman on the Bridge" but tripped over his own tongue and just fumbled out "woman". And then tried to cover his tracks with a bad apology to Number One.


Which I admit is probably not what was intended by the scene, but broad (re)interpretations sometimes need to be made in order to fit this stuff into the larger Trek universe!

 

[J.T.B.]

Just one of Riker's holo-programs.When the Captain's off the ship, they're still the Captain. The First Officer would be officer of the deck, nothing more.

No. The officer of the deck is the person responsible to the captain for running the ship during a particular watch. The officer of the deck can be any qualified officer, it has nothing to do with succession to command, he/she might be third in line of command, or thirty-third. Because the captain is ultimately responsible, the OOD underway has standing written instructions outlining situations (weather/sea state, radar contacts, mechanical/material issues...) where the captain must be called, day or night.

If the captain is not available, that responsibility has to go to someone else. Normally that would be the executive officer. Executive officer is a detailed position that by law has authority over any officer assigned to the vessel, other than the CO, regardless of rank. Like the captain, the XO does not normally stand watch, so does not serve as officer of the deck.

Because the XO may have to take over from the CO at any time, the XO has to be qualified for command in the same way as the CO. If being male were part of those qualifications, Number One would not have been assigned to her position.

Number would have became Captain only if Pike died, was declared dead, or was formally abandoned.

Being assigned as captain by higher authority, yes. The next-in-line officer performing the function of captain, that's something else that would happen immediately when the assigned captain was unable to carry out the duties of the position.

 

[Noname Given]

Good point but we never saw a Klingon female command a D-7 either did we?
JB

To be fair the ONLY time we saw female Klingons on TOS TV era was in TOS - "The Day of the Dove" (where Kang's wife Mara was his Science officer'. There were also a few of Klingon female extras in the background of a few scenes.)

 

[Commishsleer]

To be fair the ONLY time we saw female Klingons on TOS TV era was in TOS - "The Day of the Dove" (where Kang's wife Mara was his Science officer'. There were also a few of Klingon female extras in the background of a few scenes.)

But all the Klingon Captains we saw were male just like all the Federation captains. Doesn't necessarily mean there were no women captains but...
In Tribbles, Koloth said that his ship didn't carry around non-essentials like women, perhaps there were a time after ENT and while Kirk and Lester were at the Academy that the Federation trialed this too (maybe for Connies only) and stopped somewhere during Pike's captaincy of the Enterprise? OK I'm clutching at straws here.

 

[johnnybear]

To be fair the ONLY time we saw female Klingons on TOS TV era was in TOS - "The Day of the Dove" (where Kang's wife Mara was his Science officer'. There were also a few of Klingon female extras in the background of a few scenes.)

I think there was just the one in the background! And maybe Koloth's ship was on deep space exploration (despite Kirk saying that science was not the Klingon way) and women on board would be either a distraction to the men or too hard on their gals? And this is before Klingons returned to their turtleheaded savagery!
JB

 

[ChasFink]

In Tribbles, Koloth said that his ship didn't carry around non-essentials like women...

But then we have the women in "Day of the Dove". It probably wasn't what was meant by whoever wrote Koloth's line, but we can make this make sense if we take it to mean the Klingons don't have women on board who aren't essential to the working of the ship - implying that some of the women (and men, for that matter) on Federation ships were there for more - how shall I say it - recreational purposes. That sure puts a new spin on things!

 

[FormerLurker]

We did see that in the 24th century. Guinan and her entire staff of 10Forward were all non-Starfleet. Even if 23rd century Starfleet vessels weren't like that, the Klingons may have assumed so, or at least Koloth did.

 

[Commishsleer]

But then we have the women in "Day of the Dove". It probably wasn't what was meant by whoever wrote Koloth's line, but we can make this make sense if we take it to mean the Klingons don't have women on board who aren't essential to the working of the ship - implying that some of the women (and men, for that matter) on Federation ships were there for more - how shall I say it - recreational purposes. That sure puts a new spin on things!

I just thought that Koloth's ship had no women and it didn't necessarily apply to other Klingon ships.
I find it interesting that Koloth's men would find the human woman on the Space Station shall we say entertaining and vice-versa.

 

[johnnybear]

I just thought that Koloth's ship had no women and it didn't necessarily apply to other Klingon ships.
I find it interesting that Koloth's men would find the human woman on the Space Station shall we say entertaining and vice-versa.

Well five months in deep space can be quite hard on a group of guys in golden pants you know!
JB

 

[ChasFink]

Just how hard is it, johnnybear?

 

[Tenacity]

If the captain is not available, that responsibility has to go to someone else.

That person however does not become "captain" just because the captain is off the ship and can't be communicated with.

Lt. Sulu was never captain of the Enterprise simply because those senior to him were off the ship and couldn't be contacted.

Number One was not (as suggested) the "in fact" captain solely because Pike was off the ship and couldn't be contacted. Senior officer aboard yes, captain no.

In The Tholian Web, after Spock declare Kirk dead, he would have succeeded to captain.

When Sulu was (apparently) senior officer in Errand of Mercy, and took the ship into battle, he wasn't captain. If Kirk and Spock had been killed, I see no guarantee that Starfleet would have made Sulu captain of the Enterprise.

Any more than if Pike were killed or permanently lost that Number One would have been made the Enterprise's captain.

 

[Commishsleer]

That person however does not become "captain" just because the captain is off the ship and can't be communicated with.

Lt. Sulu was never captain of the Enterprise simply because those senior to him were off the ship and couldn't be contacted.

Number One was not (as suggested) the "in fact" captain solely because Pike was off the ship and couldn't be contacted. Senior officer aboard yes, captain no.

In The Tholian Web, after Spock declare Kirk dead, he would have succeeded to captain.

When Sulu was (apparently) senior officer in Errand of Mercy, and took the ship into battle, he wasn't captain. If Kirk and Spock had been killed, I see no guarantee that Starfleet would have made Sulu captain of the Enterprise.

Any more than if Pike were killed or permanently lost that Number One would have been made the Enterprise's captain.

But if there were 'legitimate' reasons why women could not be Captains then why would Starfleet allow the situation where women might have to act in a captain role?
If all women were too stupid/delicate/emotional/weak to be captains then Starfleet would be afraid to put them in that position.
If they were say paying lipservice to say the Klingons then they'd be saying to someone like Number One, while we know you can be captain in everyything but name only, we can't give you the official title because the Klingons will think us too weak or something.

 

[Charles Phipps]

I think Gene had to struggle with his own noble ideals of gender equality and his real-life where he was taking advantage of women.

Nimoy said specifically that Gene's feelings on the matter for this episode were motivated by his extraordinarily nasty divorce at the time and Lester was based on his soon to be ex-wife.

As such, we can just chalk this up to OOU concerns.

 

[SiddFinch1]

As with many parts of Trek I disagree with I gloss over and reinterpret I just view it as her crazy ramblings and being dumped by Kirknwho was focused on his career.

If she was a first.officer on a different ship.like #1 then we would have far less wiggle room as to.the meaning. She was a non Starfleet scientist who did not appear to.be someone who had an interest in commanding a starship

 

[J.T.B.]

That person however does not become "captain" just because the captain is off the ship and can't be communicated with.

Lt. Sulu was never captain of the Enterprise simply because those senior to him were off the ship and couldn't be contacted.

Number One was not (as suggested) the "in fact" captain solely because Pike was off the ship and couldn't be contacted. Senior officer aboard yes, captain no.

In The Tholian Web, after Spock declare Kirk dead, he would have succeeded to captain.

When Sulu was (apparently) senior officer in Errand of Mercy, and took the ship into battle, he wasn't captain. If Kirk and Spock had been killed, I see no guarantee that Starfleet would have made Sulu captain of the Enterprise.

Any more than if Pike were killed or permanently lost that Number One would have been made the Enterprise's captain.

I'm talking about the authority to command the ship, not just who is called "captain." The commanding officer, normally called "captain," is the officer assigned to command a vessel by authorized higher authority. If that officer is not able to command, as US Navy regulations say, due to "incapacity, death, relief from duty or absence," command of the vessel goes to the executive officer. If the executive officer is unable, command goes to the next most senior qualified officer. In the sense that she had taken command of the vessel, Number One was de facto captain, as Mytran said.

For purposes of this discussion, the question is whether being a woman disqualified someone from commanding a Starfleet vessel. I say, clearly not. If it did, Number One would either not have been assigned as first officer, or not have taken command of the vessel in Pike's absence.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Nimoy said specifically that Gene's feelings on the matter for this episode were motivated by his extraordinarily nasty divorce at the time and Lester was based on his soon to be ex-wife.

As such, we can just chalk this up to OOU concerns.

I never knew that and find it very interesting. Do you recall where you came across it? My first guess is the book I Am Spock, because it's one of the notable Nimoy things I haven't read. If it was in I am Not Spock, then I read it in the late '70s and forgot.

 

[Charles Phipps]

I never knew that and find it very interesting. Do you recall where you came across it? My first guess is the book I Am Spock, because it's one of the notable Nimoy things I haven't read. If it was in I am Not Spock, then I read it in the late '70s and forgot.

Shatner's "Where No Man" novel in the interviews talks about it a bit but it also got discussed at conventions and by other folk who followed up on it.

http://www.beyondspock.de/interviews/print/shatner_where_no_man.php

He also stated that Roddenberry was quite serious about the fact it was a slam against women captains, though that was circumstances of the very specific time.

'In the last script - the last episode ever filmed, Turnabout Intruder, Kirk was in the body of Janice Lester. A lot of stories have spun off of that. What would happen if a person really could be of the opposite sex? - and so forth. What do you think would have happened if Kirk couldn't get back to his own body? How would Spock feel about that?'

Leonard chuckles. "Well, I haven't fantasized about it." He sobers.

"What is easier for me to deal with on that particular script is the knowledge that the writer was making a script in which his goal was to prove, quote, 'That women, although they claim equality, cannot really do things as well as, under certain circumstances, as a man - like the command function, for example. And it was a rather chauvinistic, clumsy handling of an interesting question. What he set out to prove was that this lady, given command of the ship, would blow it. That's really what the script was about. Just that simple. You see."

"Yeah," Bill agrees. "The problems were solved without really -"

Leonard cuts in, nodding "That's, what I was dealing with when we were shooting that show - the knowledge that that was the concept. And I rebelled against the concept. I was uncomfortable doing the whole show because I didn't believe in the concept.

"It's a very interesting question. But I think that the script didn't really deal with the question. The script set out to prove a preconceived personal prejudice. Didn't deal with - pretended to deal with the question, but didn't, you see. That's what I was pre-concerned with, primarily concerned with in doing that particular script."

For Nimoy to have been aware of that aspect at that time is extremely unusual. It's the same script - a Roddenberry story - that we ask Gene about and which he now sees as reflecting his errors of the time. The episode is criticized especially now for exactly what Nimoy names: not only does it set out to prove a point, but it does so with loaded dice. The woman who makes the switch is not a woman of Kirk's stature, but a resentful, crazed mass-murderer who steals Kirk's body. What she does can't prove much about the female of the species - unless one takes a very dim view of the nature of the female. Nor is it a test of how a normal female would command. A more interesting story could have been written around that question, and some have been.

What is still more interesting, however, is that Nimoy, Shatner, Roddenberry had to try to grapple with those questions then. And still do.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Shatner's "Where No Man" novel in the interviews talks about it a bit but it also got discussed at conventions and by other folk who followed up on it.

http://www.beyondspock.de/interviews/print/shatner_where_no_man.php

He also stated that Roddenberry was quite serious about the fact it was a slam against women captains, though that was circumstances of the very specific time.

'In the last script - the last episode ever filmed, Turnabout Intruder, Kirk was in the body of Janice Lester. A lot of stories have spun off of that. What would happen if a person really could be of the opposite sex? - and so forth. What do you think would have happened if Kirk couldn't get back to his own body? How would Spock feel about that?'

Leonard chuckles. "Well, I haven't fantasized about it." He sobers.

"What is easier for me to deal with on that particular script is the knowledge that the writer was making a script in which his goal was to prove, quote, 'That women, although they claim equality, cannot really do things as well as, under certain circumstances, as a man - like the command function, for example. And it was a rather chauvinistic, clumsy handling of an interesting question. What he set out to prove was that this lady, given command of the ship, would blow it. That's really what the script was about. Just that simple. You see."

"Yeah," Bill agrees. "The problems were solved without really -"

Leonard cuts in, nodding "That's, what I was dealing with when we were shooting that show - the knowledge that that was the concept. And I rebelled against the concept. I was uncomfortable doing the whole show because I didn't believe in the concept.

"It's a very interesting question. But I think that the script didn't really deal with the question. The script set out to prove a preconceived personal prejudice. Didn't deal with - pretended to deal with the question, but didn't, you see. That's what I was pre-concerned with, primarily concerned with in doing that particular script."

For Nimoy to have been aware of that aspect at that time is extremely unusual. It's the same script - a Roddenberry story - that we ask Gene about and which he now sees as reflecting his errors of the time. The episode is criticized especially now for exactly what Nimoy names: not only does it set out to prove a point, but it does so with loaded dice. The woman who makes the switch is not a woman of Kirk's stature, but a resentful, crazed mass-murderer who steals Kirk's body. What she does can't prove much about the female of the species - unless one takes a very dim view of the nature of the female. Nor is it a test of how a normal female would command. A more interesting story could have been written around that question, and some have been.

What is still more interesting, however, is that Nimoy, Shatner, Roddenberry had to try to grapple with those questions then. And still do.

Whoa. Super link, thanks!

 

[Charles Phipps]

As with many parts of Trek I disagree with I gloss over and reinterpret I just view it as her crazy ramblings and being dumped by Kirknwho was focused on his career.

If she was a first.officer on a different ship.like #1 then we would have far less wiggle room as to.the meaning. She was a non Starfleet scientist who did not appear to.be someone who had an interest in commanding a starship

I think Trek fans need to be a bit more like Thomas Aquinas and less like John Calvin in their Trek Biblical scholarship. Accept the retcons and don't try and make everything literal--especially the contradictory stuff.



Romulans had Warp Drive, Janice Lester was nuts, and Klingon Ridges are not a thing.