Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

[Michael]

There's no right or wrong answer, which is the entire point of the episode.

You see, I never understood how people could view the situation in "Tuvix" that way. An answer that constitutes of killing an innocent sentient being in cold blood simply CAN'T be the right answer. Sure, not getting Tuvok and Neelix back was very unfortunate, but murdering Tuvix was just all kinds of wrong.

(As an aside, I can't believe I'm actually posting in yet another Tuvix thread. Seems like there's one every other month.)

 

[Guy Gardener]

I know she's a slave, but somebody feed that poor girl before she passes out.

 

[Melakon]

. . .blah bla-blah blah. . .

You see, I never understood how people could view the situation in "Tuvix" that way. . .

Easy. I never took an Ethics course.

 

[Michael]

I know she's a slave, but somebody feed that poor girl before she passes out.

Devna ain't no slave! She's a member of the Elysian Council and acts as their Interpreter of Laws. Oh, and she likes to dance.

 

[Michael]

. . .blah bla-blah blah. . .

You see, I never understood how people could view the situation in "Tuvix" that way. . .

Easy. I never took an Ethics course.

And neither did I. I like to think, however, that it's kind of basic to view killing an innocent as immoral.

 

[Gov Kodos]

He was a gestalt of two people, Janeway ungestalted him. Tuvok and Neelix should be able to expect transporter screw ups to be fixed. If it were the two bodies melded like simese twins no one would have this arguement, but because the minds did, suddenly he's a new person? No, he's a glitch to be fixed.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

He was a gestalt of two people, Janeway ungestalted him. Tuvok and Neelix should be able to expect transporter screw ups to be fixed. If it were the two bodies melded like simese twins no one would have this arguement, but because the minds did, suddenly he's a new person? No, he's a glitch to be fixed.

I want this as my sig.

 

[Guy Gardener]

If Tuvix had been lucky, the temporal fracturing from Shattered would have impacted on his life.

Almost everyone in every other time zone on that ship, including Seven loyal to the Borg, but not Seska who knew she had more of a right to live than Chakotay and figured out the math to support her belief system proving that her continued existence is no more destructive than if Chuckles was allowed to live, committed suicide by allowing Chuckles he chance to stop the temporal explosion in his present.

Chakotay asked for hundreds of people and maybe half a dozen Kathryn Janeway's to murder themselves or consent to being murdered, or fight being murdered poorly, so that he could live.

The needs of the few or the one out weigh the needs of the many my ass.

 

[Brit]

There's all the moral difference in the world between an accident that was no one's fault and willfully murdering someone against their will.

Agreed.

And when you don't deconstruct Tuvix once you know how to restore Tuvok and Neelix, then you have murdered them. The questioning point is not the accident, but later when the ability to restore two people to the bodies that they in fact own. To not do so is not only murder, it is most likely against the law. The right to your own body is the argument and not who is murdering who.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Janeway Murdered Tuvix once.

Tuvok and Neelix murdered the man 9 times a day for the rest of their lives every time they thought about putting the band back together until they reached the final conclusion "Nah-fuckit."

Neelix is practical, he's going to get that nice girl he met to sign a prenuptial agreement attesting that she is not going to stop frakking him if he gets converted into some sort of thing by a transporter accident.

What happened to Neelix, already already to his sister. The entire population of a moon got turned into a single cloud like entity monster which gave Neelix nightmares and caused him to desert form the space army rather than avenge his sister smited by the meteron cascade.

BY that reckoning Neelix spent the last twenty years already committed to the foregone conclusion that Tuvix was the absolute worst thing that could happen to him.

Non resus order in case it all got horribly worse vs. heroic means to reverse the procedure.

 

[Melakon]

You see, I never understood how people could view the situation in "Tuvix" that way. . .

Easy. I never took an Ethics course.

And neither did I. I like to think, however, that it's kind of basic to view killing an innocent as immoral.

All right, here's a different answer which might explain my position better. I wrote that last one right before going to bed (it was almost 2am).

My first response perhaps a dozen pages back was as Janeway, the captain, if there was even a remote chance to get my two men back, I would have done anything in my power to accomplish that. People immediately jumped on me for the comment because it wasn't what they wanted to hear.

In real life, no, I would not advocate murder of an innocent to save two others. But in terms of the science fiction premise, I don't see the definition of murder as even applicable here. Gov. Kodos seems to approach it like I do. If Tuvix had been presented as a Thing With Two Heads, this wouldn't even be an issue.

 

[R. Star]

There's all the moral difference in the world between an accident that was no one's fault and willfully murdering someone against their will.

Agreed.

And when you don't deconstruct Tuvix once you know how to restore Tuvok and Neelix, then you have murdered them. The questioning point is not the accident, but later when the ability to restore two people to the bodies that they in fact own. To not do so is not only murder, it is most likely against the law. The right to your own body is the argument and not who is murdering who.

That's the moral equivalent of saying it's murder not to harvest someone's organs against their will to save the lives of two terminally ill patients.

 

[Melakon]

Another problem I have with some of the arguments being presented is somehow comparing the Tuvix situation with abortion, which I don't understand at all. Here in the United States, I also have a big problem with legislators who want to define a fetus as a human being, or the killing of an unborn child as murder. If that's the case, why aren't potential parents allowed to declare that unborn child as a tax deduction?

 

[R. Star]

Easy. I never took an Ethics course.

And neither did I. I like to think, however, that it's kind of basic to view killing an innocent as immoral.

All right, here's a different answer which might explain my position better. I wrote that last one right before going to bed (it was almost 2am).

My first response perhaps a dozen pages back was as Janeway, the captain, if there was even a remote chance to get my two men back, I would have done anything in my power to accomplish that. People immediately jumped on me for the comment because it wasn't what they wanted to hear.

In real life, no, I would not advocate murder of an innocent to save two others. But in terms of the science fiction premise, I don't see the definition of murder as even applicable here. Gov. Kodos seems to approach it like I do. If Tuvix had been presented as a Thing With Two Heads, this wouldn't even be an issue.

Isn't that the same argument Maddox used against Data being the property of Starfleet? "If it was a box on wheels I wouldn't be facing this opposition."

 

[teya]

My first response perhaps a dozen pages back was as Janeway, the captain, if there was even a remote chance to get my two men back, I would have done anything in my power to accomplish that. People immediately jumped on me for the comment because it wasn't what they wanted to hear.

No. People disagreed with you because they disagreed with you.

 

[Brit]

Agreed.

And when you don't deconstruct Tuvix once you know how to restore Tuvok and Neelix, then you have murdered them. The questioning point is not the accident, but later when the ability to restore two people to the bodies that they in fact own. To not do so is not only murder, it is most likely against the law. The right to your own body is the argument and not who is murdering who.

That's the moral equivalent of saying it's murder not to harvest someone's organs against their will to save the lives of two terminally ill patients.

Except the evidence we saw shows these two persons were not terminally ill. Their so call illness was a result of an accident. No fault of their own. They are sentient people, and they have a long standing claim on the property in question. Tuvix is not the donor in this situation he is the recipient.

It is more like a sniper taking out someone holding two people hostage.

 

[Melakon]

Isn't that the same argument Maddox used against Data being the property of Starfleet? "If it was a box on wheels I wouldn't be facing this opposition."

Is it? I don't see them as the same issue.

No. People disagreed with you because they disagreed with you.

All right, perhaps I misinterpreted their responses.

In any case, I never should have entered the thread in the first place because I'm apparently approaching the episode from a viewpoint not in tune with the arguments being presented.

I'll stay out of it from here on, and sorry for bothering anyone.

 

[R. Star]

I said equivalent. Yes it was an accident. Yes it was no fault of Tuvok and Neelix. Neither is dying in a shuttle accident. But sometimes it happens. It's also not the fault of Tuvix that he was the result of the accident. He didn't cause the accident, yet you still insist on assigning blame to him for it. Tuvix is a sentient being with all the rights of anyone else, including not to be summarily executed against their will because Janeway decided it serves the needs of the state... which by all means she's the de facto head of out there. The only thing you could condemn Tuvix for is moral cowardice for not volunteering... but last I checked that's not a capital crime.

 

[Michael]

Somewhat off-topic, but I must be the only one who really, really enjoyed Tom Wright's calm, intelligent, heart-felt and emotional performance as Tuvix. I see him cast in a negative light by fans all the time – even in this very thread – yet I never really understood all the dissatisfaction with him. I loved him in the role, which made the climax of the episode all the more unbearable for me.

 

[Brit]

I said equivalent. Yes it was an accident. Yes it was no fault of Tuvok and Neelix. Neither is dying in a shuttle accident. But sometimes it happens. It's also not the fault of Tuvix that he was the result of the accident. He didn't cause the accident, yet you still insist on assigning blame to him for it. Tuvix is a sentient being with all the rights of anyone else, including not to be summarily executed against their will because Janeway decided it serves the needs of the state... which by all means she's the de facto head of out there. The only thing you could condemn Tuvix for is moral cowardice for not volunteering... but last I checked that's not a capital crime.

Keeping something that doesn't belong to you is a crime.

Somewhat off-topic, but I must be the only one who really, really enjoyed Tom Wright's calm, intelligent, heart-felt and emotional performance as Tuvix. I see him cast in a negative light by fans all the time – even in this very thread – yet I never really understood all the dissatisfaction with him. I loved him in the role, which made the climax of the episode all the more unbearable for me.

M I am glad you liked the character, that is a good thing. The problem is Tuvix is used time and again to justify someone's dislike of either the Janeway or the Neelix character without thinking the whole problem through to the ending.

You are supposed to feel uncomfortable, that was the aim of the writers and producers. I don't hate Tuvix, however I do like both Tuvok and Neelix a whole lot better. And that makes neither of us right or wrong, only at odds here. I am perfectly willing to concede that some people find one side of the argument more appealing than the other, what I am not willing to concede is my right to not be hit over the head with emotional arguments, and questionable preaching from the Tuvix supporter side of the argument.

What I do hope is that if I have my body stolen and am murdered for someone else, that my daughter sues the hell out of everyone involved. Again Tuvix isn't the donor, that honor goes to Tuvok and Neelix.