Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

[Hartzilla2007]

So is lithium crystals, anti-matter destroying the universe, being able to create two people of the same mass out of one person, being able to merge two being into one that has equal mass of the two and so on...

Just because it's canon doesn't mean it makes sense.

"The Enemy Within" presents a very similar situation, but I never see anyone arguing that Evil Kirk has a right to live. Except Evil Kirk's objections: "I wanna live!"

Yeah. I brought that up earlier in the thread but it doesn't fit anyone's pro-Tuvix arguments so it got ignored.

http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=7931515&postcount=61

Read everything and try again.

But to sum it up EvilKirk was DYING, as in he was already going to die, Tuvix was not.

Yes but how many transporter accidents result in the creation of a new lifeform?

Meh. There's usually some new twist. It's still just a transporter accident, not anything worth tossing out years of canon over.

accepted as canon that mid-transport accidents result in the victim being held in a sort of stasis?

Does that look like stasis to you? Becuase that sure as hell looks like horrible death to me.

Actually, most of that clip showed people in stasis. So, yes, it looked like stasis to me. Notice how the crew didn't immediately assume their crewmates were dead when the transporter began to fail. They worked up until the last moment and only stopped when they were faced with mutilated corpses.

That wasn't stasis that was them trying to reintegrate them when they couldn't stop the beaming process or reverse it and you noticed they didn't try to feed what materialized on earth back through the transporter to get Sonak and the other person back.

Putting someone is stasis is sticking them in the pattern buffer until you re-materialize them.

 

[Melakon]

"The Enemy Within" specifically states Evil Kirk is dying, so presumably Good Kirk is too. Before medical treatment cures their "mental illnesses", they'd both be dead. Spock should have assumed command immediately, as soon as it was evident Good Kirk was having reasoning problems.

 

[Sadara]

Hmmm... I wonder if that's because evil Kirk was evil and therefore it's okay to bring regular Kirk back.

In that case, Kirk needed to be integrated, because "good Kirk" was incapable of being a captain - without his dark side, as it were, he couldn't exercise command decisions. Also, "evil Kirk" was an evident threat to the ship. So those two things make it more obvious in Kirk's case than in Tuvix's.

That's my point though. If Tuvix was evil would that make a more palatable case for the decision to bring Tuvok and Neelix back? I'm interested in finding out how much the actual character of the individual influences how people feel about Tuvix and his right to life.

 

[BillJ]

Read everything and try again.

I missed a post, it happens.

 

[BillJ]

Hmmm... I wonder if that's because evil Kirk was evil and therefore it's okay to bring regular Kirk back.

In that case, Kirk needed to be integrated, because "good Kirk" was incapable of being a captain - without his dark side, as it were, he couldn't exercise command decisions. Also, "evil Kirk" was an evident threat to the ship. So those two things make it more obvious in Kirk's case than in Tuvix's.

That's my point though. If Tuvix was evil would that make a more palatable case for the decision to bring Tuvok and Neelix back? I'm interested in finding out how much the actual character of the individual influences how people feel about Tuvix and his right to life.

That was what I and other posters were getting at earlier. Guess I should have used 'evil' instead of 'sentient monster'.

 

[Sadara]

In that case, Kirk needed to be integrated, because "good Kirk" was incapable of being a captain - without his dark side, as it were, he couldn't exercise command decisions. Also, "evil Kirk" was an evident threat to the ship. So those two things make it more obvious in Kirk's case than in Tuvix's.

That's my point though. If Tuvix was evil would that make a more palatable case for the decision to bring Tuvok and Neelix back? I'm interested in finding out how much the actual character of the individual influences how people feel about Tuvix and his right to life.

That was what I and other posters were getting at earlier. Guess I should have used 'evil' instead of 'sentient monster'.

Sorry, I hadn't been reading the thread for a few days and didn't get as far back as I probably should have. Let's throw sentient monster Kirk out there and see what happens...

And the evil Kirk and good Kirk dying as a reason to reintegrate them isn't working for me when the argument against restoring Tuvok and Neelix is they died when they were integrated into one being. Along those lines Regular Kirk died when he was split into two sentient beings with rights. I personally don't agree with this, but following that argument both Kirks should have been allowed to die as the natural course of things in that episode. Or McCoy would simply have had to find a way to save both Kirks without reintegrating them in order to avoid violating the Hippocratic Oath or whatever.

And never mind all the things regular Kirk accomplished as a result of being reintegrated because that just doesn't hold up against evil Kirk's right to live.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

That's my point though. If Tuvix was evil would that make a more palatable case for the decision to bring Tuvok and Neelix back? I'm interested in finding out how much the actual character of the individual influences how people feel about Tuvix and his right to life.

That was what I and other posters were getting at earlier. Guess I should have used 'evil' instead of 'sentient monster'.

Sorry, I hadn't been reading the thread for a few days and didn't get as far back as I probably should have. Let's throw sentient monster Kirk out there and see what happens...

He dies even without being reintegrated. Which is why reintegrating the Kirks seemed more like euthanasia instead of murder.

 

[BillJ]

Sorry, I hadn't been reading the thread for a few days and didn't get as far back as I probably should have. Let's throw sentient monster Kirk out there and see what happens...

 

[teya]

It's not often an argument on a Star Trek board leaves me speechless, but congrats! You just did.

I think you're taking the argument a little too seriously.

You're the one who said that no one would know if they'd kill to keep a loved one alive until they were in that situation.

I call bullshit.

 

[BillJ]

You're the one who said that no one would know if they'd kill to keep a loved one alive until they were in that situation.

I call bullshit.

Let me know when you're put in that situation.

 

[teya]

"The Enemy Within" specifically states Evil Kirk is dying, so presumably Good Kirk is too. Before medical treatment cures their "mental illnesses", they'd both be dead. Spock should have assumed command immediately, as soon as it was evident Good Kirk was having reasoning problems.

And that 2 halves of the same person can't survive alone is seen once again at the end of "Faces."

 

[JanewayRulz!]

Hmmm... I wonder if that's because evil Kirk was evil and therefore it's okay to bring regular Kirk back.

In that case, Kirk needed to be integrated, because "good Kirk" was incapable of being a captain - without his dark side, as it were, he couldn't exercise command decisions. Also, "evil Kirk" was an evident threat to the ship. So those two things make it more obvious in Kirk's case than in Tuvix's.

That's my point though. If Tuvix was evil would that make a more palatable case for the decision to bring Tuvok and Neelix back? I'm interested in finding out how much the actual character of the individual influences how people feel about Tuvix and his right to life.

Speaking from the perspective of what makes an interesting episode... the writers wouldn't have wanted to make the decision more palatable. That's the point.

Janeway did kill Tuvix.

That should never be easy.

Janeway certainly doesn't think so, as she leaves sickbay with a look of resignation / muted (?) horror on her face.

 

[teya]

You're the one who said that no one would know if they'd kill to keep a loved one alive until they were in that situation.

I call bullshit.

Let me know when you're put in that situation.

I was.

I'm the widow of someone who died while on a transplant list.

Never would it have occured to me that it would be justifiable to kill someone else to get him a new kidney.

That is immoral.

So, yeah, bullshit on your argument.

 

[BillJ]

You're the one who said that no one would know if they'd kill to keep a loved one alive until they were in that situation.

I call bullshit.

Let me know when you're put in that situation.

I was.

I'm the widow of someone who died while on a transplant list.

Never would it have occured to me that it would be justifiable to kill someone else to get him a new kidney.

That is immoral.

So, yeah, bullshit on your argument.

One, I'm sorry for your loss.

While I disagree with your statements I'll let it go at that.

 

[Ryva Brall]

I'd say teya wins this thread. And Kes deserves a swift kick in the pants. The end.

 

[teya]

Let me know when you're put in that situation.

I was.

I'm the widow of someone who died while on a transplant list.

Never would it have occured to me that it would be justifiable to kill someone else to get him a new kidney.

That is immoral.

So, yeah, bullshit on your argument.

One, I'm sorry for your loss.

While I disagree with your statements I'll let it go at that.

Thanks, but I'm not sure what statements you're disagreeing with...

That I never entertained the idea of killing someone to save him? Well, I didn't.

That it's immoral to kill someone else to save someone you love? Well, it is.

 

[teya]

Speaking from the perspective of what makes an interesting episode... the writers wouldn't have wanted to make the decision more palatable. That's the point.

Janeway did kill Tuvix.

That should never be easy.

Janeway certainly doesn't think so, as she leaves sickbay with a look of resignation / muted (?) horror on her face.

Nailed it.

That's the thing in the end: while some folks are passionately arguing that Janeway did the right, moral thing, that there is no reason to question her actions, I think Kate played it beautifully at the end.

Janeway knew that what she'd done was, at best, questionable. But she did it, took the responsibility, and she's the one who will live with it.

That brief pause and the look on her face outside sickbay spoke volumes.

 

[spot_loves_data]

That wasn't stasis that was them trying to reintegrate them when they couldn't stop the beaming process or reverse it and you noticed they didn't try to feed what materialized on earth back through the transporter to get Sonak and the other person back.

Putting someone is stasis is sticking them in the pattern buffer until you re-materialize them.

If people are in a sort of stasis during transport, then yes, they were in stasis - they had dematerialized but had not yet rematerialized. Multple buffers are built into transporters and everyone who sets foot in a transporter is recorded. We've seen captains retrieve dna patterns from these records time and time again.

It's hardly a point in favor of your argument that the bodies weren't used to reconstruct living people. You're forgetting the alien plant that made Tuvix possible. All transporter accidents are a little different and there have been many sci-fi elements involved. What doesn't seem to change is the crew's willingness to do everything possible to retrieve their lost crewmate. They assume that transporter accidents are reversible, barring clear evidence of a fatality.

The crew acts as though Tuvok and Neelix are still alive waiting to be rescued. As the viewer, I'm going to take their word for it, especially as it matches the way transporter accidents have been treated treated throughout Trek. There's just no reason to jump to the conclusion that they're dead when the script doesn't support it.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Just because she wielded the knife, that doesn't mean that she took responsibility.

The reset button on Voyager meant that no one took responsibility for anything.

What about Mulchaey? The genetic doner for the 29th century Borg Drone?

That "THING" was either his son, his brother or himself depending on how you want to look at it... And there IT was walking around with his face becoming the most beloved of all to the entire crew and the fresh meat hot blonde.

There can only be one and this time it ain't One.

Mulchaey danced on that poor boys grave and he must have been bitter that One was allowed to build a first class life on Voyager when he's locked up in a closet somewhere ignored.

Given time to fester Mulchaey would have killed One to get One life that should have been his if he was "lucky" enough to have been Borg, but given Ones death, the noble sacrifice that saved everyone, that dedicated and educated Star Fleet officer will be seen as the inferior manifest of the same DNA which can never live up to the legacy of some transporter accident and he might as well kill himself because whenever any other bugger looks at his face they don't see him, they just see some freak who stole his identity.

Woman would probably sleep with him if they're allowed to call him One.

The poor bastard is just a celebrity impersonator now and his work shifts are always turned up side down so that he is never allowed to spend any duty shift sharing air with Seven of Nine because she can't stand the heart ache.

So Mulchaey has to go back in time or widget some Borg tech to bring One back to life so that One can live long enough to cock it all up with a nonplussing supplemental appendix... You know, like how in a better universe the last two hours of lord of the Rings should have been cut.

...

One of Janeways arguments was that Tuvok and Neelix had too many friends and family. If it was just the vampire like emotional needs of servicing greedy Friends and family... Why not go back in time and harvest another set? If time splits rather than collapses, she'll be fine but it's not like that spacial scission isn't just a month back that they could have made two Tuvixes afterwhich they could draw straws to see which one one Janeway was allowed to kill.

Of course then Tuvix would still be scratching at Kes' door even as Neelix is on the other side making love to the object of their unified affection.

If Tuvix kept prowling and stalking there's no way that Kes would have felt secure on Voyager enough to break up with Neelix... She could outright leave the ship, but that would be letting him win.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

That wasn't stasis that was them trying to reintegrate them when they couldn't stop the beaming process or reverse it and you noticed they didn't try to feed what materialized on earth back through the transporter to get Sonak and the other person back.

Putting someone is stasis is sticking them in the pattern buffer until you re-materialize them.

If people are in a sort of stasis during transport, then yes, they were in stasis -

Well according to the episode already mention where Barclay was aware during transport no they are not.

they had dematerialized but had not yet rematerialized. Multple buffers are built into transporters and everyone who sets foot in a transporter is recorded.

When was that ever said? Hell if a person is recorded why not materialize a new one every time they die?

We've seen captains retrieve dna patterns from these records time and time again.

DNA does not a whole person make.

It's hardly a point in favor of your argument that the bodies weren't used to reconstruct living people. You're forgetting the alien plant that made Tuvix possible.

Which has f@#k all to do with what your talking about

All transporter accidents are a little different and there have been many sci-fi elements involved. What doesn't seem to change is the crew's willingness to do everything possible to retrieve their lost crewmate.

While they are still re-materializing.

They assume that transporter accidents are reversible, barring clear evidence of a fatality.

They are not reversing anything they haven't finished beaming them yet. Until they either lose the pattern or something materializes on the pad or other destination they haven't finished the process.

The crew acts as though Tuvok and Neelix are still alive waiting to be rescued.

Or so they assume, stuff onscreen about transporters tends to disagree with them.

As the viewer, I'm going to take their word for it,

And I'm not since it sounds like just being optimistic about a situation they don't know squat about. Hell for all we know the separation could have left a dead Tuvok and a dead Neelix or puddles of organic goo.

especially as it matches the way transporter accidents have been treated treated throughout Trek.

No not really, Tuvix materialized on the pad thus the transporter process is finished as in done, completed, no longer in process. you know the point you said they stopped trying at.

There's just no reason to jump to the conclusion that they're dead when the script doesn't support it.

They aren't there, they are no long a cloud of energy with the hope of being reassembled. So basically they don't exist any more. let me repeat that THEY HAVE CEASED TO EXIST. So how is it jumping to conclusions to believe that that something that no longer exists as an entity is no longer alive?