Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

[Hartzilla2007]

Of course, then you have to wonder if Captain Tuvix would have gotten his ass kicked by Basics?

Well considering he wouldn't have any reason to go after Chakotay's not baby he probably would have avoided the whole thing.

If she loses a crewman or two to rescue someone important to the operation of Voyager, does that also constitute murder?

Depends on is she ordering them to give up vital organs to save said person without their consent.

I also find dictating someone's right to live based on their value monstrous.

When Spock and good-Kirk conspired to force evil Kirk onto the transporter pad against his will to cure good-Kirk's sudden inability to lead, does that constitute murder?

Not really seeing as the were both dying so really its more of euthanasia that happens to also get Kirk back.

Shoot, TNG turned Old Lady Pulaski into Middle Aged Pulaski with the transporter.

You know its stuff like this that makes the importance of the radiation in Insurrection seem idiotic as they already have a fountain of youth machine just have some engineer tinker with it on his off hours.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Janeway didn't kill anyone. She restored Tuvok and Neelix back to normal after a transporter accident.

It was basically the same as when The Doctor restored B'Elanna back to normal after the division of her in "Faces".

According to the poll I took on that subject...

http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=199072&highlight=B'Elanna+died+faces

The group consensus is that B'Elanna died in Faces and was replaced by a transpoprter clone that might as well have been the same woman but wasn't.

It's a close vote. You could totally change the will of the group with one vote.

The power is yours.

But then after Deadlock they're all spacial scission clones except Naomi and Harry, who were the only first class citizens and not freak accidents with dellusions of grandure... Which is when I laughably remind you that Harry was the only real Starfleet officer left and there for the real Captain of Voyager but he was to fricking dim to figure it out.

 

[Melakon]

Tuvix was a cad (a full blown Terry-Thomas cad). The situation gets re-scrambled in the later "Drone", when a transporter accident blends Seven's nanoprobes and the EMH's mobile emitter, with different results.

 

[teya]

Tuvix was a cad (a full blown Terry-Thomas cad). The situation gets re-scrambled in the later "Drone", when a transporter accident blends Seven's nanoprobes and the EMH's mobile emitter, with different results.

Yep, One was altruistic and willingly sacrificed himself to save others.

Tuvix was selfish and didn't.

But, still, selfishness is not a capital offense.

 

[Melakon]

So essentially, Neelix's JQ (Jerk Quotient) saved his and Tuvok's lives.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

If killing Tuvix to save Neelix and Tom is morally okay, then it's also okay to kill a poor person on the street in order to harvest their organs for rich people who need them.

One person died and two or three more 'contributing' people got the hearts and livers and kidneys they needed to live, must be ok cause the numbers are on your side, right?

And Guy, putting aside your religious refusal to accept the internal logic of the show regarding artificial intelligence. The lightbulb's programming was not capable of taking any action that would directly result in a loss of life. The Hippocratic Oath was hard coded into him, and he can't kill any more than Internet Explorer can render large DOMs.

 

[Melakon]

If killing Tuvix to save Neelix and Tom. . .

How did Tom Paris get dragged into this?

 

[R. Star]

Well that would explain Tuvix's generally salamanderish look!

 

[Captain Kathryn]

I think it was right...because Tuvix did not suffer an actual death...there was no corpse...he was a melding of two individuals. When he was separated, all that came of it were Tuvok and Neelix back to their normal selves. Not separating Tuvix would have meant ending the lives of Neelix and Tuvok. 2 over 1!

PLUS TUVIX IS THE CREEPIEST DUDE EVER.

 

[Captain Kathryn]

Having to look at Tuvok and Neelix for 5 More Seasons versus Having to look at Tuvix for 5 More Seasons = Janeway's decision is correct.

 

[R. Star]

By that logic Tuvok and Neelix didn't actually die... there was no corpse. The fact that he was an accident doesn't matter. He was alive and a living sentient being regardless of how he came to be. If he was born, if he was cloned, if he was a transporter accident, it doesn't matter. He's alive. There is no moral way you can defend the murder of one person for the benefit of the group. That was the argument used for slavery. That the subservience of a minority race benefits the majority. As for the creepy comment... what's it matter? You think a guy who looks creepy deserves to be murdered?

 

[marksound]

Neither Tuvok nor Neelix volunteered to become a mixed being. Returning Tuvix to his original state of two separate people is a logical choice.

It is conceivable that in time Tuvix would start to deteriorate. If not physically then mentally. If that happened it could result in the loss of not one, not two, but all three lives.

 

[Captain Kathryn]

By that logic Tuvok and Neelix didn't actually die... there was no corpse. The fact that he was an accident doesn't matter. He was alive and a living sentient being regardless of how he came to be. If he was born, if he was cloned, if he was a transporter accident, it doesn't matter. He's alive. There is no moral way you can defend the murder of one person for the benefit of the group. That was the argument used for slavery. That the subservience of a minority race benefits the majority. As for the creepy comment... what's it matter? You think a guy who looks creepy deserves to be murdered?

No! I was only joking about his creepiness. He certainly doesn't deserve to die for looking creepy! I was kidding.

But I do not believe he was "murdered" in the literal sense of the word since he was essentially two people combined as one. I do not think Tuvok and Neelix would have wanted to be forever joined as Tuvix.

However, did I feel sad and a little uneasy when they separated him? Yes, the first time watching it, I did. It's a moral dilemma. They usually do not have concrete right and wrong answers.

It was either save Tuvix and let Neelix and Tuvok cease to exist. Or save Neelix and Tuvok and have Tuvix cease to exist. There is no real answer.

 

[R. Star]

It was either save Tuvix and let Neelix and Tuvok cease to exist. Or save Neelix and Tuvok and have Tuvix cease to exist. There is no real answer.

The former had already happened as the result of an accident, where as the latter is deliberately murdering a person simply because you like the other two better. The first wasn't a choice, it just happened. The second was a choice and a morally bankrupt one. No one has the right to play god and decide who lives and dies.

 

[Captain Kathryn]

It was either save Tuvix and let Neelix and Tuvok cease to exist. Or save Neelix and Tuvok and have Tuvix cease to exist. There is no real answer.

The former had already happened as the result of an accident, where as the latter is deliberately murdering a person simply because you like the other two better. The first wasn't a choice, it just happened. The second was a choice and a morally bankrupt one. No one has the right to play god and decide who lives and dies.

When Tuvix is originally formed, though, keep in mind that he still thought of himself as two separate entities and WANTED to be separated. It was after a certain amount of time had passed and he had gotten used to his new existence...that he started to see himself as his own person.

At that point, when someone looks at you and says "I am an individual"...it does become morally wrong. I don't deny that. But to be honest, it's TV. They could not just add Tuvix to the cast and kick out Tuvok and Neelix. If anything...they shouldn't have had that episode.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Tuvix is one person. Neelix and Tuvok are two.

The greatest good for the greatest number. I don't see how it's possible to ever ignore this basic fundamental truth. Surely the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few...or the one?

 

[Ryva Brall]

And Guy, putting aside your religious refusal to accept the internal logic of the show regarding artificial intelligence. The lightbulb's programming was not capable of taking any action that would directly result in a loss of life. The Hippocratic Oath was hard coded into him, and he can't kill any more than Internet Explorer can render large DOMs.

This is what I was trying to say earlier. Like it or not, the Doctor was the chief medical officer on Voyager. Regardless of whether his decision was influenced by pre-programmed ethical subroutines or an actual conscience, there was no way he was going to kill someone against their will. And like teya said, just about ANY doctor, organic or not, would have come to the same decision.

However, I don't think there's any more point in arguing the case for the Doctor's sentience than there is in arguing over whether or not killing Tuvix was the right decision. It's obvious that everyone has their own opinions, and it's highly unlikely that any of us are going to change our minds. Clearly, none of us are on the fence about it.

 

[R. Star]

Yes it is the right decision, and no it is not murder. For these reasons:

- Tuvix is one person. Neelix and Tuvok are two. The greatest good for the greatest number.

So you'd be willing to have anyone just kill you and harvest your organs if it would benefit two or more people's lives? Wait, you don't have to be willing. Greatest good for the greatest number.

- Tuvix owes his entire existence to a transporter malfunction. He was not supposed to exist.

Who are you to decide that? Who is Janeway? So only people who are actively given birth to have the right to life? What about cloning, do they have no rights just because of the method of their creation? The only fact that matters is he DOES exist.

- Retroactive though this may be, Tuvok and Neelix would later express gratitude that they were able to be separated. And the mere fact that they were able to be separated proves that they were never 'dead'...

I'm sure they are, but that's irrelevant to the discussion. For all practical purposes they were gone when Tuvix was created. That Janeway found out how to literally cut open a person against his will and give life to two others is the issue. Janeway has ZERO right to decide that she can play god and kill a person for her perceived benefit.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

For all practical purposes they were gone when Tuvix was created.

Ah-ha! So why is it abhorrent to end Tuvix's life, but not to end Tuvok and Neelix's lives? What gives Tuvix the right to exist at their expense?

 

[R. Star]

For all practical purposes they were gone when Tuvix was created.

Ah-ha! So why is it abhorrent to end Tuvix's life, but not to end Tuvok and Neelix's lives? What gives Tuvix the right to exist at their expense?

Because Tuvok and Neelix dying was an accident. Tuvix dying was deliberate murder. All the difference in the world. You can argue that Tuvix is morally a coward for not willingly sacrificing himself. But I for one don't think being a coward warrants a death sentence.