Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

[Brit]

Didn't Tuvix have bodily autonomy too?

No since the amalgamated bodies belonged to Neelix and Tuvok to begin with. What I am saying is according to US law (and several other countries), all the rights belong to Tuvok and Neelix. The term is "continuous consent." Meaning not only to Tuvok and Neelix have to give permission, they have to continue to give permission. You cannot even use the body parts of someone declared legally dead without permission.

But we once again come to the transporter accident, they consented to using the transporter with the knowledge that something no matter how remote could go wrong with the transporter process. Something went wrong and as a consequence of their consent to use the transporter they have to abide by the consequences of their consententual decision to use the transporter.

Implied consent can only be taken if you can prove that both parties could reasonably expect to be put together in a transporter accident. Unless this outcome was so common that both parties were knowledgeable as to the risk, you cannot imply that their consent is based on an ambiguous idea that transporters are dangerous. You might reasonably consent to a danger of being killed, but I don't see how anyone could have a blanket consent that involves two different species and a blossom from a planet in the Delta Quadrant that hadn't been observed before.

In fact the only kind of consent documents I can see that Star Fleet might require is the consent for a Commanding Officer to decide your fate should you be incapacitated in the line of your Star Fleet Service, which is what we saw Janeway actually doing in the episode.

But if Tuvix isn't a separate entity and consciousness (with his own rights) and is simply a combination of Tuvok and Neelix then surely his demand to live can easily be construed as proof that Tuvok and Neelix are demonstrably giving their consent....if Tuvix is simply "them" combined then his desire to live is also their desire....and as long as he continuously claims to want to live, they are continuously giving consent

Actually if you watch the episode, in the beginning, Tuvix was also actively helping the Doctor to discover a way to separate him back into his two components. Could that not be construed to be a lack of consent on Tuvok and Neelix's part.

It is entirely possible that Tuvix was not emotionally stable in the first place, and that we actually saw the beginning of his breakdown before he was separated. But remember this is "continuing consent", and what we see at the end is that neither Neelix nor Tuvok asking to be put back together.

 

[Melakon]

Tuvok probably took a long hot sonic shower, making sure all the Neelix cooties were out of his system.

 

[hux]

Actually if you watch the episode, in the beginning, Tuvix was also actively helping the Doctor to discover a way to separate him back into his two components. Could that not be construed to be a lack of consent on Tuvok and Neelix's part.

If we're working on the basis that Tuvix is not a unique consciousness then this would simply highlight that they (Tuvok and Neelix) changed their minds and came to prefer the shared existence of Tuvix

It is entirely possible that Tuvix was not emotionally stable in the first place, and that we actually saw the beginning of his breakdown before he was separated. But remember this is "continuing consent", and what we see at the end is that neither Neelix nor Tuvok asking to be put back together.

That argument doesn't work....firstly, we didn't hear them say anything for or against such an outcome and secondly, they may not want to admit to wanting to be put back together

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Actually, this circumstance was not unknown and some standard was already in play in Federation medicine.

There's no way to remove Curzon's memories from Odo without his cooperation. He has to give them up willingly.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Still bugs me that nobody ever replies to the questions I raise on the subject, but I'll forego that in favor of asking exactly how long Tuvix does exist, since I haven't watched the episode in forever.

I think it might have been a stronger episode if they'd upped the stakes by making it a month instead of a week. Though the fact that the episode generates this much debate speaks well for its strength...or the persistence of people here.

It had been a month.

The writers thought that was long enough for Tuvix to establish himself and appreciate his life.

The entire crew was halved in deadlock, and two Janeways first plan was stick themselves back together until it wasn't and they should both fly free.

For a moment, both Janeways agreed on their immediate destruction to create a super composite of themselves, to Tuvix everyone, their ship and everyone aboard her... Which would have amalgamated Naomi with a corpse and killed the still living version of her obviously, was a fantastic idea.

Sam would have bludgeoned her with a hyperspanner.

 

[MacLeod]

No since the amalgamated bodies belonged to Neelix and Tuvok to begin with. What I am saying is according to US law (and several other countries), all the rights belong to Tuvok and Neelix. The term is "continuous consent." Meaning not only to Tuvok and Neelix have to give permission, they have to continue to give permission. You cannot even use the body parts of someone declared legally dead without permission.

But we once again come to the transporter accident, they consented to using the transporter with the knowledge that something no matter how remote could go wrong with the transporter process. Something went wrong and as a consequence of their consent to use the transporter they have to abide by the consequences of their consententual decision to use the transporter.

Implied consent can only be taken if you can prove that both parties could reasonably expect to be put together in a transporter accident. Unless this outcome was so common that both parties were knowledgeable as to the risk, you cannot imply that their consent is based on an ambiguous idea that transporters are dangerous. You might reasonably consent to a danger of being killed, but I don't see how anyone could have a blanket consent that involves two different species and a blossom from a planet in the Delta Quadrant that hadn't been observed before.

In fact the only kind of consent documents I can see that Star Fleet might require is the consent for a Commanding Officer to decide your fate should you be incapacitated in the line of your Star Fleet Service, which is what we saw Janeway actually doing in the episode.

But if Tuvix isn't a separate entity and consciousness (with his own rights) and is simply a combination of Tuvok and Neelix then surely his demand to live can easily be construed as proof that Tuvok and Neelix are demonstrably giving their consent....if Tuvix is simply "them" combined then his desire to live is also their desire....and as long as he continuously claims to want to live, they are continuously giving consent

Actually if you watch the episode, in the beginning, Tuvix was also actively helping the Doctor to discover a way to separate him back into his two components. Could that not be construed to be a lack of consent on Tuvok and Neelix's part.

It is entirely possible that Tuvix was not emotionally stable in the first place, and that we actually saw the beginning of his breakdown before he was separated. But remember this is "continuing consent", and what we see at the end is that neither Neelix nor Tuvok asking to be put back together.

When we do something, do we always know every single possible risk? I suspect not, as sometimes something unforseen can occur that the creators/inventors never even thought could happen.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Soon there is going to be a settlement from an air disaster so staggering that, that passengers thenceforth will all have to sign binding wavers before their air plane will even think about rising off the tarmac.

Or is this already happening?

911 victims can't sue the binladin group (a company founded by Osama's dad.) but they can sue Saudi Arabia...

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2012/01/911-victims-cant-sue-binladen-group.html

http://abcnews.go.com/US/911-families-ecstatic-finally-sue-saudi-arabia/story?id=21290177

 

[Brit]

When we do something, do we always know every single possible risk? I suspect not, as sometimes something unforseen can occur that the creators/inventors never even thought could happen.

At the time of the episode, transporters had been in use well over one hundred years.

From Memory Beta

"By the 24th century, most space-faring civilizations of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants employed transporter technology for short-range transport of personnel and equipment. There were many advantages to utilizing transporters.

Traveling by transporter was essentially instantaneous and an individual's sense of time while transporting was effectively non-existent. Benjamin Sisko and Harry Kim, while training at Starfleet Academy in San Francisco, frequently transported to New Orleans and South Carolina, respectively, to see their parents. (DS9: "Explorers"; VOY: "Non Sequitur")"

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Transporter

So yes I do think that all the people in the Federation knew about transporters and in general come to expect to be moved from one point to another safely. I am also relatively sure that Star Fleet had a policy of protecting the safety and the individual rights of the people that chose to serve. You wouldn't get too many volunteers if you didn't.

 

[Guy Gardener]

As safe as Transporters may seem, remember that terrorism still exists, and devices called "pattern scramblers" (DS9 Empok Nor.) are effective and deadly which can turn any transporter into a suicide booth without the transportee being at all aware that s/he is signing their own death warrant.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Transporter_scrambler

Considering that there are parts of America with incidentally flammable drinking water.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2531083/Dakota-man-discovers-tap-water-flammable.html

Like dominoes, state after state is going to have fucked up tap water eventually, but until that moment of transition, in every specific geographical location continentally vs. time, it's unclear why anyone would should stop drinking/using safe drinking water while it is still safe, before it is unsafe.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Today, dated Friday March 14 (where I live.) on Greys Anatomy, which I'm ten minutes into, an organ donor is pronounced brain dead. They legally have to wait 6 hours to be just sure. The brother of the donor then asks the Doctors if he can have the kidney he donated a month ago, back, which must have been a last ditch effort to save his brothers life THAT FAILED.

"If I loaned him my bike, I'd want it back."

I'll update this post in 30 minutes when the episode finishes.

 

[Melakon]

He donated the kidney. He didn't loan it to his brother. It was a gift. By his logic, if he'd given his brother a Maserati last Christmas, he'd want that back too I guess.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Oh he was completely irrational. That was a given.

(From memory.)

Brother "Hi, um, you said that you would think about giving me my kidney back. "

Dr. Lara Croft (from a recent video game, but she looks the part apart from the b cup.) "Um, no, I don't believe that I did, um.. Oh Dr Hunt (that guy from Rome, you haven't seen Rome? So uberviolent and hypersexual.) I was wondering if we ever give back organs that have been donated?"

Hunt "No. Never. It's illegal."

(And it goes on, but there was a funny bit...)

Dr Lara Croft "There is no way that we can give you your kidney back"

Brother "See! You admit it! It's my kidney!"

 

[MacLeod]

When we do something, do we always know every single possible risk? I suspect not, as sometimes something unforseen can occur that the creators/inventors never even thought could happen.

At the time of the episode, transporters had been in use well over one hundred years.

From Memory Beta

"By the 24th century, most space-faring civilizations of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants employed transporter technology for short-range transport of personnel and equipment. There were many advantages to utilizing transporters.

Traveling by transporter was essentially instantaneous and an individual's sense of time while transporting was effectively non-existent. Benjamin Sisko and Harry Kim, while training at Starfleet Academy in San Francisco, frequently transported to New Orleans and South Carolina, respectively, to see their parents. (DS9: "Explorers"; VOY: "Non Sequitur")"

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Transporter

So yes I do think that all the people in the Federation knew about transporters and in general come to expect to be moved from one point to another safely. I am also relatively sure that Star Fleet had a policy of protecting the safety and the individual rights of the people that chose to serve. You wouldn't get too many volunteers if you didn't.

100 years, 1000 years etc.. what differences does the time make. Unforseen events can still occur. Once an unforseen event occurs engineers/scientists can work on designing new safety systems to prevent that event from occuring occuring.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Kirk was split in two, and recombined 105 years earlier, Sonak was turned into a puddle of screaming meat 90 years earlier, Riker was doubled 20 years earlier, 3 years earlier 1/2 a dozen crew had to fished out of Enterprises Transporter buffer by Barclay after they had been stuck there for a week... Shit happens.

 

[teya]

So yes I do think that all the people in the Federation knew about transporters and in general come to expect to be moved from one point to another safely. I am also relatively sure that Star Fleet had a policy of protecting the safety and the individual rights of the people that chose to serve. You wouldn't get too many volunteers if you didn't.

Air travel has been around for over 100 years, and planes still don't make it to their destination.

Train travel has been around for well over 100 years, and trains still derail.

Shit happens. People die.

People also go into Star Fleet understanding that exploration is not without risks.

 

[Brit]

So yes I do think that all the people in the Federation knew about transporters and in general come to expect to be moved from one point to another safely. I am also relatively sure that Star Fleet had a policy of protecting the safety and the individual rights of the people that chose to serve. You wouldn't get too many volunteers if you didn't.

Air travel has been around for over 100 years, and planes still don't make it to their destination.

Train travel has been around for well over 100 years, and trains still derail.

Shit happens. People die.

People also go into Star Fleet understanding that exploration is not without risks.

And airlines are subject to rules and they can be held responsible for the times when shit happens and people die. Yet even when airplanes have accidents, it is still the safest mode of transportation and people getting onto airplanes have a reasonable expectation to getting off that airplane at their desired destination.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

The problem is there is no money so who do you sue when you get squished into someone via the transport or see the horror that is your double and are mentally traumatized afterwards?

 

[Guy Gardener]

"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires, both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid."

 

[Guy Gardener]

The problem is there is no money so who do you sue when you get squished into someone via the transport or see the horror that is your double and are mentally traumatized afterwards?

21st century Suing = 24th century Petitioning changes in the law (no warp travel above warp 5 because it toxic to the ecology of space!) = 24th century official complaints to get some complicit, perhaps incompetent fucktard fired.

 

[Melakon]

I've not seen the episode in over 10 years at least, so I have to ask...

In that month or so that Tuvix was aboard, did he ever go on any landing party missions via transporter? If they had beamed him back down immediately after he first appeared, and he magically turned back into two people again, I guess the episode could have been over by the end of the first act.