Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

^LOL

If the Dominion had pushed the Federation far enough they would have caved and made clones. Who wouldn't want to pump out endless soldiers that you dumbed down from having any people feelings and needs rather than just have your own people wiped out? The plans were probably already in motion, should it come to that.

 

[Guy Gardener]

What if there was a means to double, treble or quadruple the IQ of the jem'Hadar?

Some version of what happened to Barclay in TNG The Nth Degree.

Yes, intellect trumps faith.

Although intellect does have trouble against brainwashing since birth.

So you probably have to wipe their memories like in TNG Conundrum first.

 

[Shane Houston]

You've missed the point. A commander can order a fellow officer to do their duty to the crew even if the consequence is death; so Troi can order the chief engineer to repair the warp drive even if it means fatal radiation poisoning. We cannot order the chief engineer to simply be killed.



Don't be absurd. Morality is more important than anything else; the entire point of life is to be moral. And besides, Tuvix was as competent an officer as Tuvok; killing him and replacing him with a copy of Tuvok does not actually benefit ship's efficiency.

No, you missed the point. It was pointed out to Deanna by Riker , very very clearly, that her first duty IS TO THE SHIP. The ship. Deanna's whole trouble with the test was that she was having difficulty sending a person, any person, to their death. Morals have nothing to do sometimes with command decisions when the first duty is to the ship.

To quote Deanna, right after the test, "That's what this is all about wasn't it? To see if I would order someone to their death?"

Riker: "That's right."

Riker said nothing about being prepared for only command decisions regarding Engineering deaths, but to be prepared to make what he called, the "hard choice."

Getting back to Janeway and Tuvix. Janeway had to make a hard choice, and one way or another the "moral" high ground simply wasn't available to her. Morally, like she herself said and Kes agreed with, the captain had a moral obligation to Tuvok's family and Neelix's. She had a command obligation to the ship.

And why is Tuvix morally innocent. It is the moral obligation of any Starfleet officer to sacrifice their lives for another. Tuvix had an opportunity to save the lives of two men. I counter that it was Tuvix who was as morally wrong in this argument on whether he should be separated or not.

Here's another question I'm curious about. Why is Tuvix and Janeway's decision to seperate him any different than Captain Archer's order to use Sim, Trip Tucker's clone, to sacrifice his life in order to save his Chief Engineer? Why do we not have a Archer's Decision To Kill Sim thread? It's the same situation.

And morally, is not the prime directive also an immoral directive? The point being that not all command decisions can have a clear cut moral high ground to live up to?

You must have a...resenment towards Captain Janeway to brand her a murderer when every Captain from Kirk to Archer has made those kind of choices themselves.

 

[MacLeod]

Except strictly speaking Tuvix isn't a member of Starfleet.

 

[Gov Kodos]

He's a Brundlefly made of two starfleet officers. Separate him.

 

[Shane Houston]

Except strictly speaking Tuvix isn't a member of Starfleet.

Yes he was. He was given the rank of Lieutenant.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Except strictly speaking Tuvix isn't a member of Starfleet.

Yes he was. He was given the rank of Lieutenant.

The Maquis had ranks, too, but they weren't really Starfleet. IIRC, Janeway could only offer them provisional commissions, pending return to the Alpha Quadrant.

 

[Guy Gardener]

You don't have to and you're not supposed to follow illegal orders.

HoloGeordi just shuffled off to his own death because he could see that it was his duty to say the ship and the other thousand people on board Enterprise.

But he could have just as easily said "Go fuck yourself."

Well, not just as easily, his sacrifice meant that a thousand people would live and that's hard to ignore.

Tuvix's sacrifice meant nothing.

The ship wasn't in danger, he could do both Neelix and Tuvok's jobs.

And he'd win over Kes eventually with persistence.

Were Neelix and Tuvok struggling to get out, or were they happy inside him?

Tuvix claimed that they were happy and his parents.

Seems like a slam dunk.

On the case of Sim.

That guy had a seven DAY life cycle.

He refused to help Trip because he believed that if he missed the window where his parts were ripe for Trip's ailing body, that in the remaining 2 days left to him, that magically Phlox could give him another 40 years.

I forget. Did Phlox find a way to give Sim another 40 years and still cut him up for parts, or did the Doctor run out of time?

 

[TiberiusMaximus]

Remember that episode where Tuvok and Neelix both needed kidney transplants, and the only available donor was Crewman Bob? You know, the annoying guy Janeway found creepy.

That sure was awesome of Janeway to make the hard decision and have Bob's kidney's forcibly removed to save Tuvok and Neelix. I really don't know what Bob's problem was. It was so selfish of him to want those kidneys for himself. Janeway should have killed him sooner.

No moral dilemma there. No sir. Janeway sure is smart.

 

[Lt. Uhura-Brown]

There should have been some comeback from Tuvok and Neelix after they were separated again.

Like an acknowledgement from them both that Janeway did either the right or wrong thing, something to give the whole Tuvix controversy some closure.

It would have been interesting if one of them agreed with Janeway's decision to separate them, and the other one preferred being Tuvix.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Accidentally, and in no way intended by the writers or the producers, you would be talking about Riddles, where Neelix convinces the new personality living inside Tuvok to get lobotomised to bring back Mr Vulcan.

 

[T'Girl]

... he could do both Neelix and Tuvok's jobs.

And could he be in two places at once? Tuvok and Neelix could.

Were Neelix and Tuvok struggling to get out, or were they happy inside him?

Tuvix claimed that they were happy and his parents.

As I point out earlier, there was no apparent effort on the parts of Tuvok and Neelix to become recombined.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Which means that they were just as hateful and selfish as Tuvix, which is probably where Tuvix got all his hateful selfishness from.

The Gift of the Magi this is not.

 

[Sci]

No, you missed the point. It was pointed out to Deanna by Riker , very very clearly, that her first duty IS TO THE SHIP. The ship. Deanna's whole trouble with the test was that she was having difficulty sending a person, any person, to their death. Morals have nothing to do sometimes with command decisions when the first duty is to the ship.

He is speaking figuratively with regards to the moral obligation any officer holds to save the ship's crew as part of their duties -- an obligation they agreed to undertake by joining Starfleet.

Once again: A commander has the authority to issue an order that will result in an officer's death if he is ordering that offer to perform her lawful duties, such as combat or ship repairs. A commander does not have the authority to simply order someone to die. Tuvix was not ordered to perform lawful duties that would result in his death; he was merely ordered to die. This is illegal under military law.

Getting back to Janeway and Tuvix. Janeway had to make a hard choice, and one way or another the "moral" high ground simply wasn't available to her.

Of course it was. Not murdering Tuvix was available to her.

Morally, like she herself said and Kes agreed with, the captain had a moral obligation to Tuvok's family and Neelix's.

Yes -- she had a moral obligation to inform the families of their deaths.

And why is Tuvix morally innocent. It is the moral obligation of any Starfleet officer to sacrifice their lives for another.

Is it, in all possible circumstances? Where has this been established?

Tuvix had an opportunity to save the lives of two men.

No, he did not. They were already dead.

And morally, is not the prime directive also an immoral directive?

Depends on how you interpret it.

 

[Gov Kodos]

Sanctimonious poppycock. Neelix and Tuvok aren't anymore dead than Brundlefly or the Thing with Two Heads. Unglitch the glitch.

 

[Guy Gardener]

So there's a colony with only enough food for a month, but the relief ship with more food isn't going to show up for two months, so everyone will die unless the Governor of said colony orders the deaths of half the colony, so that the remaining half can live.

What do you call someone like that?

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Bad at math.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Governor Miral Paris?

 

[Shane Houston]

No, you missed the point. It was pointed out to Deanna by Riker , very very clearly, that her first duty IS TO THE SHIP. The ship. Deanna's whole trouble with the test was that she was having difficulty sending a person, any person, to their death. Morals have nothing to do sometimes with command decisions when the first duty is to the ship.

He is speaking figuratively with regards to the moral obligation any officer holds to save the ship's crew as part of their duties -- an obligation they agreed to undertake by joining Starfleet.

Once again: A commander has the authority to issue an order that will result in an officer's death if he is ordering that offer to perform her lawful duties, such as combat or ship repairs. A commander does not have the authority to simply order someone to die. Tuvix was not ordered to perform lawful duties that would result in his death; he was merely ordered to die. This is illegal under military law.

Getting back to Janeway and Tuvix. Janeway had to make a hard choice, and one way or another the "moral" high ground simply wasn't available to her.

Of course it was. Not murdering Tuvix was available to her.

Yes -- she had a moral obligation to inform the families of their deaths.

Is it, in all possible circumstances? Where has this been established?

Tuvix had an opportunity to save the lives of two men.

No, he did not. They were already dead.

And morally, is not the prime directive also an immoral directive?

Depends on how you interpret it.

Um, no...Riker said that her first duty was to the ship. The ship. And whether or not you agree with it, Janeway's decision was what was best for Voyager in her judgement as commander of the ship. Setting her own feelings aside, in a ship far away from home, with no fresh personnel to restaff the ship, separating Tuvok and Neelix gets her two officers for one.

And again, no, Tuvok and Neelix were not dead, if they were dead Tuvix would not have existed. They were joined together in symbiosis. Like Jadzia and Ezri were joined to the Dax symbiont.

I guess you would say that Commander Sisko was a murderer when he forced Verad to give up the Dax symbiont. Remember that after Verad was joined with Dax he became a new entity. But I guess all you need is enough hate for Kathryn Janeway to give Sisko a pass for saving Jadzia, his friend, at the expense to the new Verad Dax entity. It didn't matter that the abduction of Dax was illegal, buy your standards Sisko and Julian Bashir committed murder of Verad Dax.

Tuvix himself said that both Tuvok and Neelix had a strong will to live. She asked herself what would they want? Again, your analogy that they were dead is flawed, they were alive, joined together. You better damn well bet they would want the captain to do just what she did.

 

[R. Star]

So there's a colony with only enough food for a month, but the relief ship with more food isn't going to show up for two months, so everyone will die unless the Governor of said colony orders the deaths of half the colony, so that the remaining half can live.

What do you call someone like that?

So you have food for half of them. Out of the starving half, you could kill only half of them, and have them eat the dead. Then 3/4 of the colony survives.