Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

[Deckerd]

Yeah the fundamental problem with the murder charge is that not to do anything would be condemning two colleagues to oblivion, since they aren't dead. Something that can be brought back isn't dead by any definition. If you accept that then you accept that Tuvix isn't dead but separated out into two different people.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Yeah the fundamental problem with the murder charge is that not to do anything would be condemning two colleagues to oblivion, since they aren't dead. Something that can be brought back isn't dead by any definition. If you accept that then you accept that Tuvix isn't dead but separated out into two different people.

Except under that assumption Tuvok and Neelix would still be alive even if Tuvix was still around so why exactly couldn't they wait to find a better solution than picking who gets to live and who gets to die?

 

[R. Star]

SO much pin-head dancing. I'll say it again: If two of your kids were fused into one being and started crowing about his rights...you wouldn't hesitate for one second to pull the plug and get your kids back.

This. I understand the moral and ethical issue with the whole Tuvix thing, but I don't think I'd be able to write Tuvok and Neelix off as dead if there was a way to get them back. They have the right to have their lives back.

You have to write off words like moral and ethical when you're talking about killing a living sentient being against his will to get them back. Tuvix had as much of a right to exist after the accident happened as Tuvok and Neelix when they came out of the womb.

 

[Deckerd]

I don't think you do. If it's in her power to bring them back, she's ethically obliged to do so.

 

[R. Star]

I don't think you do. If it's in her power to bring them back, she's ethically obliged to do so.

Then why didn't Janeway take Neelix's lungs back in Phage again? She gave a long winded speech about how humanity was above that sort of thing.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

I don't think you do. If it's in her power to bring them back, she's ethically obliged to do so.

So if I could bring a dead person by sacrificing say an 8 year old child I would be ethically obliged to do so because it would be within my power to be able to?

 

[Sadara]

I don't think you do. If it's in her power to bring them back, she's ethically obliged to do so.

So if I could bring a dead person by sacrificing say an 8 year old child I would be ethically obliged to do so because it would be within my power to be able to?

Not everyone here agrees that Tuvok and Neelix would be considered dead just like not everyone agrees that they aren't. No matter how you slice it, someone in that episode was going away permanently. Others have already discussed the numbers game. Perhaps Tuvok's family would be more... forgiving of the choice to leave Tuvix as is, but were it my spouse who was left like that when the technology exisited to return two people to their orignal lives, I'd be pissed.

It affects more people than just Tuvix. It would have been interesting to hear Tuvok himself weigh in on it.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Tuvok and Neelix would still be alive even if Tuvix was still around

No, they wouldn't. They were not conscious within the body of Tuvix. They were effectively "shut down" as long as Tuvix was alive.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Perhaps Tuvok's family would be more... forgiving of the choice to leave Tuvix as is,

well considering they probably already thought he was dead at the time....

Tuvok and Neelix would still be alive even if Tuvix was still around

No, they wouldn't. They were not conscious within the body of Tuvix. They were effectively "shut down" as long as Tuvix was alive.

So their dead then?

 

[Sadara]

Perhaps Tuvok's family would be more... forgiving of the choice to leave Tuvix as is,

well considering they probably already thought he was dead at the time....

So that justifies not bringing Tuvok back?

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Perhaps Tuvok's family would be more... forgiving of the choice to leave Tuvix as is,

well considering they probably already thought he was dead at the time....

So that justifies not bringing Tuvok back?

No just pointing out how that appeal to emotion (which for Vulcan's wouldn't even factor into the decision) doesn't really hold water. Not to mention he's a Starfleet security officer its not like his family wouldn't know there is a pretty damned good chance he could get killed in the line of duty.

The fact that he's already dead is what justifies not bringing Tuvok back.

 

[Sadara]

well considering they probably already thought he was dead at the time....

So that justifies not bringing Tuvok back?

No just pointing out how that appeal to emotion (which for Vulcan's wouldn't even factor into the decision) doesn't really hold water. Not to mention he's a Starfleet security officer its not like his family wouldn't know there is a pretty damned good chance he could get killed in the line of duty.

The fact that he's already dead is what justifies not bringing Tuvok back.

They would likely be considered dead if there was no way separate them back into Tuvok and Neelix. There is a way which is what makes this a gray area.

 

[Melakon]

I don't understand all the anti-abortion themed arguments saying Tuvix must live. In classic sci-fi terminology, Tuvix is a monster. He is not an unborn child. There is a chance that Neelix and Tuvok can be restored. Janeway has an obligation to them to take that chance, however slim it is, to get them back.

 

[R. Star]

Just because he was brought into being in a manner that's different from us doesn't invalidate his life or give him any less rights than anyone else. Frankly that's a bit disturbing that you so casually remark that just because someone's different they're less of a person. But it's a common theme in humanity to dehumanize anyone to rationalize their death in their mind.

 

[BillJ]

Just because he was brought into being in a manner that's different from us doesn't invalidate his life or give him any less rights than anyone else. Frankly that's a bit disturbing that you so casually remark that just because someone's different they're less of a person. But it's a common theme in humanity to dehumanize anyone to rationalize their death in their mind.

I don't think that's the point. If the transporter had put together a sentient monster, would everyone be as willing to defend its right to exist vs. the rights of Tuvok and Neelix?

 

[R. Star]

Just because he was brought into being in a manner that's different from us doesn't invalidate his life or give him any less rights than anyone else. Frankly that's a bit disturbing that you so casually remark that just because someone's different they're less of a person. But it's a common theme in humanity to dehumanize anyone to rationalize their death in their mind.

I don't think that's the point. If the transporter had put together a sentient monster, would everyone be as willing to defend its right to exist vs. the rights of Tuvok and Neelix?

So by calling someone a monster does that somehow justify their killing? You already said it's sentient so by definition it's a person regardless of if you don't like the way it looks for whatever reason. So yes... it's different, you don't like that, so it has less rights than you, seems to be what you're arguing.

 

[BillJ]

So by calling someone a monster does that somehow justify their killing? You already said it's sentient so by definition it's a person regardless of if you don't like the way it looks for whatever reason. So yes... it's different, you don't like that, so it has less rights than you, seems to be what you're arguing.

I already stated where I stand on the issue earlier in the thread.

But I'm not sure that many folks would feel as strongly about Tuvix if he had been something outside the norm.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Just because he was brought into being in a manner that's different from us doesn't invalidate his life or give him any less rights than anyone else. Frankly that's a bit disturbing that you so casually remark that just because someone's different they're less of a person. But it's a common theme in humanity to dehumanize anyone to rationalize their death in their mind.

I don't think that's the point. If the transporter had put together a sentient monster, would everyone be as willing to defend its right to exist vs. the rights of Tuvok and Neelix?

What exactly qualifies as a monster?

Honestly it just sounds like a decent chunk of the justifications for killing Tuvix are its not natural so we should kill it. What the hell happened to IDIC and all that nice stuff about being tolerant of other lifeforms trek goes on about.

Honestly some of you are starting to sound like the bigoted villagers in most modern versions of Frankenstein.

 

[Melakon]

Just because he was brought into being in a manner that's different from us doesn't invalidate his life or give him any less rights than anyone else. Frankly that's a bit disturbing that you so casually remark that just because someone's different they're less of a person. But it's a common theme in humanity to dehumanize anyone to rationalize their death in their mind.

My position has always been that Janeway has an obligation to the lives of her crew, and to do what's best for the ship. It's not a question of whether it's "right" based on human rights moralities, but whether it's to the benefit of the ship.
Disclosure: I have never been a parent, so this undoubtedly affects how I view the issue.

 

[R. Star]

Just because he was brought into being in a manner that's different from us doesn't invalidate his life or give him any less rights than anyone else. Frankly that's a bit disturbing that you so casually remark that just because someone's different they're less of a person. But it's a common theme in humanity to dehumanize anyone to rationalize their death in their mind.

My position has always been that Janeway has an obligation to the lives of her crew, and to do what's best for the ship. It's not a question of whether it's "right" based on human rights moralities, but whether it's to the benefit of the ship.
Disclosure: I have never been a parent, so this undoubtedly affects how I view the issue.

A fellow named Hitler used a similar argument towards his obligations to Germany.