Janeway, Lesbian Icon?

[henbane]

For instance, acupuncture works

Not if you read Ben Goldacre it doesn't.

Actually he is wrong. Very easy for someone who is ill-informed to make that statement.

It's been proven time and time again that acupuncture does work - and proven by mainstream Cartesian reductionist scientific method ie experiments designed according to the "gold standard" of scientific research method. Don't believe me? Go to your local university medical library and read the latest research published in top line peer-reviewed journals.

As I said, it's been proven over and over again to work way beyond the placebo effect. All forms of medicine have a placebo effect - about 30% effective, so if you're a health practitioner working at only a 30% success rate then you're only having a placebo effect.

The way in which acupuncture works is unknown but the effects of acupuncture (ie that it works) can be measured by many methods eg fMRI, biofeedback etc etc Some older, ill-informed biomedical writers insist it works on "gate theory" and such, but they are wrong too. Far more complex and as yet biomedicine doesn't have the technology to determine how it works.....just like many drug effects and body functions.

There is no form of medicine that is 100% effective - western biomedicine included. In addition, don't forget that western biomedicine also has a 30% placebo effect - a fact often conveniently forgotten by the masses.

 

[firecrackerrrr]

The short answer is Kate Mulgrew.

I'm about to leave and won't be able to come back to this until Tuesday of next week.

But, here are my thought, as a lesbian.

The character of Janeway exudes a certain amount of confidence that all women tend to gravitate toward. Compassionate with her people, strong under pressure, and intelligent to boot, Janeway is someone many aspire to be like

On the flip of that, people tend to be attracted to others who posses the qualities they wish to have or find admirable.

Kate is very attractive.

When you add all of those things up, you get lesbian icon because we are drawn to her not only in the sense of a role model, but as someone we're attracted to.

This! All of it! In fact I associate Janeway/Kate with the time in my life when I was very sexually confused (I was about 11). I knew that something was different and I think my mother knew too considering the amount of Janeway/Seven/Scully posters on my wall

 

[Guy Gardener]

Any Xena posters?

She's bait, not an icon.

Non defined bait that can get a few orientations purring.

 

[henbane]

Define "lesbian icon" as opposed to an "icon"

 

[Guy Gardener]

I've been trying to explain the difference for 9 pages now.

 

[henbane]

I know - but as yet I see nothing definitive. Iconic status seems to be in the eye of the beholder - independent of sexual orientation.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Janeway can't be a lesbian Icon without being a lesbian or representative of being a Lesbian or some specifically defining lesbian trait.

Lesbians may like her as a person and a role model as a woman or an officer, but that's not what a lesbian icon is.

from answers.com

n.

• also i·kon (ī'kŏn')
  1. An image; a representation.
  2. A representation or picture of a sacred or sanctified Christian personage, traditionally used and venerated in the Eastern Church.
• An important and enduring symbol: "Voyager will take its place ... alongside such icons of airborne adventure as The Spirit of St. Louis and [the] Bell X-1" (William D. Marbach).
• One who is the object of great attention and devotion; an idol: "He is ... a pop icon designed and manufactured for the video generation" (Harry F. Waters).
• Computer Science. A picture on a screen that represents a specific file, directory, window, option, or program.

To be an icon you have to be an example (of the best?) of something.

Sexual icon? Sure.

Female icon? Sure.

Short People Icon? Sure.

Despot Icon? Sure.

But Janeway is not a lesbian Icon.

On the production side of things, Lesbians don't exist in Voyager, and in-story sexual orientation preference intolerance doesn't exist in the federation as demonstrated in DS9 were gays and lesbians were allowed to exist and thrive in TWO Universes.

Is Admiral Kain from Batttlestar Galactica a Lesbian Icon or a monster who happens to be a lesbian?

 

[firecrackerrrr]

Janeway can't be a lesbian Icon without being a lesbian or representative of being a Lesbian or some specifically defining lesbian trait.

Lesbians may like her as a person and a role model as a woman or an officer, but that's not what a lesbian icon is.

from answers.com

n.

• also i·kon (ī'kŏn')
  1. An image; a representation.
  2. A representation or picture of a sacred or sanctified Christian personage, traditionally used and venerated in the Eastern Church.
• An important and enduring symbol: "Voyager will take its place ... alongside such icons of airborne adventure as The Spirit of St. Louis and [the] Bell X-1" (William D. Marbach).
• One who is the object of great attention and devotion; an idol: "He is ... a pop icon designed and manufactured for the video generation" (Harry F. Waters).
• Computer Science. A picture on a screen that represents a specific file, directory, window, option, or program.

To be an icon you have to be an example (of the best?) of something.

Sexual icon? Sure.

Female icon? Sure.

Short People Icon? Sure.

Despot Icon? Sure.

But Janeway is not a lesbian Icon.

On the production side of things, Lesbians don't exist in Voyager, and in-story sexual orientation preference intolerance doesn't exist in the federation as demonstrated in DS9 were gays and lesbians were allowed to exist and thrive in TWO Universes.

Is Admiral Kain from Batttlestar Galactica a Lesbian Icon or a monster who happens to be a lesbian?

Maybe by definition. But I've met so many lesbians (and generally gay people) in my community - and I live right by Davie street, the gay district in Vancouver, and help organize the Gay Pride Parade every year - who don't normally watch Star Trek, or rather do not watch the other shows but have watched Voyager when they were younger because they admired Janeway. Now, that by definition may not mean she's a lesbian icon but she IS an icon to a lot of lesbians. Moreso than the other Captains. So if you want to be technical, go ahead. Doesn't change my truth. Or many lesbians truths (for the 11th time tonight, I apologize. I'm on some amazing flu medication)

 

[Guy Gardener]

I'm pretty sure that Archer had a gay adventure in Congenitor.

3 days alone in a lockbox the size of a bathtub with Adreas Katsulas?

You can't tell me nothing happened!

The Musk! All that Musk!!!

By day 2 they just would have done away with conventions like clothing, from there with the space concessions, if one of them were to yawn too hard, they'd be making out like how those Jersey Shore kids say hello.

All lesbian Icons are female Icons, but not all female icons are lesbian icons.

Jonathan Archer is a Muppet Icon.

 

[firecrackerrrr]

I'm pretty sure that Archer had a gay adventure in Congenitor.

3 days alone in a lockbox the size of a bathtub with Adreas Katsulas?

You can't tell me nothing happened!

The Musk! All that Musk!!!

By day 2 they just would have done away with conventions like clothing, from there with the space concessions, if one of them were to yawn too hard, they'd be making out like how those Jersey Shore kids say hello.

All lesbian Icons are female Icons, but not all female icons are lesbian icons.

Jonathan Archer is a Muppet Icon.

But Janeway sure is an icon to a large number of lesbians....among others of course. Can we agree on that?

 

[Jetfire]

Janeway rawks! She could be anyone's icon.

7 Of 9 is my icon.

Janeway + 7 = Lighter fluid when I am BBQing alone.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Gay hero perhaps?

I have reservations about calling her even a female hero/Icon because the 24th century woman isn't handicapped by anything, unlike the modern woman who is handicapped by convention, law, tradition, and men being basically assholes and spoiled.

For all the equality and entitlement just handed to her no different from any other human being, it's exactly like she's cheating comparing her rise to power to that of a female in the 20th or 21st century. Imagine if a woman from the 17th century was given al the advantages a woman gets these days and think about where in life she would have got to if not empress of the universe?

(I've painted myself into a corner here. I can't back down even though there's no measurable point to victory.)

A Straight Gay hero?

Even that sounds wrong.

Though I suppose a straight that does good for the gay community can be a gay hero with out being gay, although perhaps an Honorary gay icon? ...But Janeway has done nothing for the gay community because there is nothing she can do to help gay people in a world were there is %100 acceptance, even though conceptually she hasn't even admitted that homosexuals exist or that their existence is possible.

(There was an episode of Tripping the Rift with a planet boasting a population of 100 percent pure gayness, where it was illegal to be straight. Hilarious!)

Jadzia Dax made out with the actress who plays the Borg Queen on DS9 but Voyager did nothing to raise the ante to seem competitive at being equally representative in comparison to their sister show when there is certainly money and awards in doing so.

I was watching a Woody Allen movie the other day, the one where Jason Biggs played Woody Allen and Woody Allen played some old guy who hung out with Woody Allen... But he was talking about Jews for Hitler which was supposedly a "real" political group in the mid 1930s before everything went pear shaped.

If the gays want her, I have no idea why I am standing in their way?

Can any social political group not also lay claim & ownership on Kathryn Janeway if she doesn't have to be representative or even aware of that group just because they dig her? Can she exist as a dual or multi -Icon that this white woman of no specific religion born after the demolishment of countries that she would not even understand being called an American except within a historical concept, a woman who is as well equally finding money and racial/sexual/orientation inequality absolutely alien?

Other than men, so I am told, no one hates Janeway, so that means that other than men, she is a Universal Icon, applicable to every sentient being living anywhere that copulates in any which way they think is groovy.

Ergo Janeway is as much an Icelandic Garage Band Icon as she is a Lesbian Icon.

Oh?

Is there a large number of Lesbians who like Sisko? If there were, would that make him a Lesbian Icon too?

 

[JanewayRulz!]

It depends on how you define "It".

Definition of ICON

1
: a usually pictorial representation : image

2
[Late Greek eikōn, from Greek] : a conventional religious image typically painted on a small wooden panel and used in the devotions of Eastern Christians

3
: an object of uncritical devotion : idol

4
: emblem, symbol <the house became an icon of 1960's residential architecture — Paul Goldberger>

5
a : a sign (as a word or graphic symbol) whose form suggests its meaning b : a graphic symbol on a computer display screen that usually suggests the type of object represented or the purpose of an available function

— icon·ic\ī-ˈkä-nik\ adjective
— icon·i·cal·ly\-ni-k(ə-)lē\ adverb
Variants of ICON

icon also ikon \ˈī-ˌkän\

Examples of ICON

1. Click on the icon to open your e-mail program.
2. He has become an icon in the movie business.
3. a singer who has become a pop icon
4. The Statue of Liberty has become an American cultural icon.

Origin of ICON

Latin, from Greek eikōn, from eikenai to resemble First Known Use: 1572


Related to ICON

Synonyms: god, hero, idol (also ikon)
Antonyms: nobody, noncelebrity

Related Words: beau ideal, classic, exemplar, ideal, model, nonpareil, paragon
Near Antonyms: lightweight, mediocrity; has-been
see all synonyms and antonyms

[+]more

If we define Icon as version #3, an object of uncritical devotion, then Janeway can be the "icon" of any group who sees her thus.

With her ability to be an "icon" for many disparate groups, would probably be better served with another description.. that of archetype.

Definition of ARCHETYPE

1
: the original pattern or model of which all things of the same type are representations or copies : prototype; also : a perfect example

2
: idea 1a

3
: an inherited idea or mode of thought in the psychology of C. G. Jung that is derived from the experience of the race and is present in the unconscious of the individual

— ar·che·typ·al\ˌär-ki-ˈtī-pəl\ also ar·che·typ·i·cal \-ˈti-pi-kəl\ adjective
— ar·che·typ·al·ly\-pə-lē\ also ar·che·typ·i·cal·ly \-ˈti-pi-k(ə-)lē\ adverb
Examples of ARCHETYPE

1. He is the archetype of a successful businessman.
2. an archetype of the modern family

Origin of ARCHETYPE

Latin archetypum, from Greek archetypon, from neuter of archetypos archetypal, from archein + typos type First Known Use: 1545


Related to ARCHETYPE

Synonyms: antecedent, ancestor, daddy, foregoer, forerunner, granddaddy (also grandaddy), precursor, predecessor, prototype
Antonyms: descendant (also descendent)

Related Words: model, original; originator, sire; father, mother
Near Antonyms: by-product, derivative, offshoot, outgrowth, spin-off; daughter, son
see all synonyms and antonyms

[+]more

The CAPTAIN of a Starship is usually the archytypical hero, father/mother figure of her crew. We gravitate towards her the same way we gravitate towards Sisko, Picard or Kirk.

 

[Guy Gardener]

3 might work if you're flexible about the definition of the word "uncritical", however 1,2,4 and 5 suggest that Janeway is not a gay icon.

Nice try though.

 

[flemm]

3 might work if you're flexible about the definition of the word "uncritical", however 1,2,4 and 5 suggest that Janeway is not a gay icon.

Nice try though.

Words aren't normally employed with all their possible meanings in mind. One is enough, especially since "icon" is often used in popular culture in the sense of "object of devotion" or "idol."

From that point of view, I think Janeway can certainly be considered a lesbian icon if she is indeed the object of widespread devotion and admiration on the part of lesbians. I have no idea if that is so, however.

 

[Guy Gardener]

So it's just a question of sampling?

How do you round up a thousand lesbians to ask them inane questions about pop culture?

 

[JanewayRulz!]

^^Post a question on a discussion board, and step out of the way?

 

[The Trekster]

Jews for Hitler

They trusted a naked bus driver.


On Topic:
I'll be brief in my opinion. I do get the impression from lesbians I know that Janeway is a gay icon.

I mean, Liza Minnelli is neither male nor gay and is definitely an icon in the gay male community (Barbra Streisand, as well).

As I see it, it comes from
a)the strength and confidence of her character,
2) the obvious subtext(hardly anything in film/tv/acting is accidental, btw) between Janeway and Seven (seriously, Janeway, can you stop looking at her tits?), and
c) The actress Kate Mulgrew has been outspoken (and was at the time of the show) that there should be a gay character on Voyager

When Ellen DeGeneres came out on her show, there was a lot of press about the possibility of Janeway getting with Seven. If you're telling me that subtext, one way or the other regarding this possibility, was not intentional, then I gotta go ahead and call you crazy.

 

[henbane]

Can you name some males that are lesbian icons?

 

[The Trekster]

Not sure if your question was directed at me, but I'll answer it anyway.

Not that I'm aware of, but I'm no expert :P