Janeway, Lesbian Icon?

[kimc]

That's just bad writing.

Seconded

The whole "Cortical Implant" was a piss poor way out for the writing team to explain why Seven Of Nine isn't more "Emotional", changing their minds once again they decided that it could be removed and thus an entire episode "Imperfection" was made pointless, I guess another example of the "Reset Switch"

Generally speaking, although i'm a fan of VOY, the parts that did ruin it for me, were generally to do with how the writers handled Seven Of Nine's character

Braga said in a dvd interview that "Imperfection" was supposed to be the beginning of a tragic arc for Seven culminating with her death (to save the crew) in the finale. While I'm not a fan of Trek character deaths considering what they ended up doing to her character in the second half of the final season this arc may have done her more justice.

 

[Adm_Hawthorne]

I don't think it would really have made sense to kill her off anyway, but they could have at least done some back peddling to get rid of that silly cortical node nonsense.

 

[Adm_Hawthorne]

I hope I don't hurt for this double post, but I just found a lovely quote from Kate about being a lesbian icon.

Kate Mulgrew: My husband doesn’t know I’m gay! I’m thrilled. I find the gay community...Oh, somebody’s really... I’m going to get in such trouble with you people... Smart, compassionate, wise, precocious, generally sexy, and always present. So if I am attractive to lesbians, that is attractive to me. And if I’m attractive to gay men, that is exalting to me. Because we are talking about minorities, aren’t we? [sic] The gay community is still a minority, and so are women. So it’s the linking of hands and the crossing of vast oceans, and it’s wonderful. That’s my honest, honest opinion of that.

Gawd, I love that woman.

 

[henbane]

ever the politician

 

[Adm_Hawthorne]

I take it you're not a Kate fan?

 

[Mr Silver]

ever the politician

How is she being a Politician? She's not exactly trying to persuade people to like Janeway/Mulgrew, She was simply pointing out reasons for why she likes Janeway and Mulgrew, I think its pretty justified considering the topic is Janeway as a Lesbian Icon and in Adm_Hawthorne's post she was pointing out admirable qualities about KM

I take it you're not a Kate fan?

I guess not

 

[henbane]

Oh dear - you guys are being way too defensive....lol. Settle!!

I am a Janeway fan - thought she was by far the best Captain, although I loved Kirk (TOS) too.

When asked that question at a convention, in front of a huge female audience (many of whom are gay) about being a Lesbian icon, what do you expect Kate Mulgrew to say?

Kate is not stupid. She knows she has a large gay following so of course, she is going to say something really positive, hence she is being a politician. It's no secret Kate has a flair for the dramatic in real life and she certainly knows how to please her fans and what to say to please her fans (unlike some other Trek actors). I'm not criticising Kate for this as it's all part of playing the game of being a celebrity, especially if you want the viewing public to like you.

 

[Adm_Hawthorne]

Kate is consistent.

n 2002, Kate Mulgrew (who played Captain Janeway) gave an interview to Metrosource where she spoke candidly about the issue of LGBT characters in the Star Trek television universe.

" [...] because of its both political and potentially incendiary substance. I'm in a minority as well, as a woman. It took a lot of courage on their part to hire a woman. I think that right up until the end they were very dubious about it. It's one thing to cast a subordinate Black, Asian or woman, but to put them in leading role means the solid endorsement of one of the largest studios in the world. And that goes for a gay character as well. It requires a terrific social conscience on their part and the pledge of some solidarity and unanimity, which I think is probably at the source of most of this problem to get every one of those executives on board regarding this decision."

 

[Mr Silver]

Oh dear - you guys are being way too defensive....lol. Settle!!

I am a Janeway fan - thought she was by far the best Captain, although I loved Kirk (TOS) too.

When asked that question at a convention, in front of a huge female audience (many of whom are gay) about being a Lesbian icon, what do you expect Kate Mulgrew to say?

Kate is not stupid. She knows she has a large gay following so of course, she is going to say something really positive, hence she is being a politician. It's no secret Kate has a flair for the dramatic in real life and she certainly knows how to please her fans and what to say to please her fans (unlike some other Trek actors). I'm not criticising Kate for this as it's all part of playing the game of being a celebrity, especially if you want the viewing public to like you.

Arrghh!!

My Apologies, I thought you were referring toAdm_Hawthorne as the politican!! (suggesting that she was trying to convince people to like Janeway)

I can see your point, however I think KM unlike some of the earlier actors, brought a decent amount of honesty regarding her role in the show and how about she went developing her character, certainly no where near as harsh as a certain actor (Beltran) who wouldn't hesitate to criticise the show and his character...

 

[henbane]

madmatthias - no problem.

Agree about Beltran - not very professional behaviour at all. Sure it's ok to disagree with certain things about a show or your role, but not in the manner in which Beltran did or does.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Is gruntled a word? It doesn't sound very comfortable to be gruntled, so it's only good sense that Rob chose to be disgruntled.

back on point...

Okay there's no disagreement that Janeway is an excellent human being when she's written right(whatever that means?) but then, she's not a person more so than an Archetype. How many other strong female Starship Captains can we think of who are, are-not or should-be "Lesbian icons" because they are too also the same formletter archetypes of the classic hero but with their genitals on the inside (that's a Samantha Carter line from Stargate. A female Captain of a starship which is the minimum requirement one believes for enlistment into this group of Icons.).

In No particular order...

AdmiralCain, Commander of the Battlestar Pegasus. Actually a lesbian but deranged and driven to the point of out right evil. Her girlfriend shot her in the face. Not an aspect anyone wants to emulate. Promoting partner-abuse.

Captain Ivonova. Captain of an Earth-Force Warlock Class Destroyer. Possibly a lesbian but certainly a Bisexual since we saw her have it off with that magnificent blonde teep they had keeping the merchants honest before she went bad. We may've only seen her in command of other ships at a lower rank, but she was sitting in the chair issuing the kill orders from hell fending against the biggest of bads.

Captain Carmen IBanez. Colon. She's complicated.

Captain Erica Hernandez of the USS Columbia NX-02 had sleeping bag sex with Archer, so it's unclear if she ever wants to have sex ever again with either gender after that. Never struck me as so dynamic, and the flipflopping with her chief engineer was the work of a doormat. Splendidly pretty Though.

Lt Colonel Samantha Carter blows up stars. Marvel.

Captain Rachel Garrett of the USS Enterprise 1701 C was unequivocally noble."Oh? I'll save the Federation from twenty years of doomed history if I march me and my crew back into the cross fire of a Romulan killing field? Our lives for the safety of well being of the Federation and every one we know and care for? No problem". Now that's a fucking hero!

The unnamed Captain of the USS Saratoga played by Madge Sinclair in Star Trek IV was the only Captin smart enough to think about weaving a solar sail to reinitiate life support unlike every other dumb bastard before her who said said "Bugger, we seem to be fucked dead. Oh bother." Smart Cookie.

Captain Belinda Blowhard of the Dreadnaught Nemesis... Um? Claudia again, but the plot of the show is that the crew is driven insane by a virus and then act utterly batshit for the entire run, so it's hard to draw if she is or not a good role model since last I heard, they were still trying to sell this lemon to any network in the world.

Vice Admiral Alynna Necheyev had her own ship, but was for the most part seemingly just a bureaucrat. Loved it when she called Jean-Luc a wuss for not exterminating the Borg and if he passed up on genocide again she was going to to give his ship to someone who could get the job done. Nice fire in her belly.

Hmm?

So who is the biggest lesbian icon and where in this hierarchy sampling does Kathryn Janeway fit?

 

[henbane]

Just look back through pop culture but almost any woman who plays a strong dominant commanding role in a fantasy seems to become a lesbian icon.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

And what about Commander Elizabeth Shelby? She sure put that dick Riker in his place. GAH I wish she had been first officer on the Hilton.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Why does that sound like another of Paris' porno tapes where she does a naval base?

Shelby is excellent in the new frontier novels, becoming xo on the Excalibur, wife to the Captain, then Captain of her own ship with her husbands former mistress as her xo and then she becomes an admiral with a star base under her control as well as her husband under her in the chain of command I believe. The Antikim.

Logic.

If all lesbians are all female (Eddie Izzard?) then all female icons are lesbian icons. Surely? What rough schism would invent a rolemodel who would be the idol of lesbians but not the rest of femdom and vice versus?

 

[henbane]

I meant as opposed to females icons who are not strong, dominant and commanding.

btw: that new frontier novel sounds like a soap opera! LOL

 

[Guy Gardener]

NovelS. There's almost 20 of them produced across the span of a decade.

Um.

The opposite of strong dominant and commanding is weak, callow, and subservient.

I think we have to go back 200 years in the first world for those to be traits any woman would strive towards.

 

[henbane]

Of course not (although there are some who find the weak and subservient attractive).

What about all those in between - which includes most female characters on scene and stage. These more "demure" women don't seem to attract the title of lesbian icon in the same manner as the strong, dominant and commanding fictional female characters.

 

[Adm_Hawthorne]

Of course not (although there are some who find the weak and subservient attractive).

What about all those in between - which includes most female characters on scene and stage. These more "demure" women don't seem to attract the title of lesbian icon in the same manner as the strong, dominant and commanding fictional female characters.

First of all, no icon for any group is ever the "weaker one", so you're already running with fallacies.

The following are strong female characters that are not Lesbian Icons:

Murphy Brown
Julia Sugarbaker
Dorthy Zbornak
Katherine Pulaski
Miss Anna (From The King and I)
River Tam
The Bride (From Kill Bill)
Hermione Granger

 

[henbane]

Well - I have lesbian friends who would disagree with you on that (esp Murphy Brown and Miss Anna).

Also, there are icons who are "weaker ones" - they don't all have to be heroes.

Think we have to agree to disagree on this one, as it's all in they eye of the beholder.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Stronger in unusual areas perhaps? Besides "Strength" without other calming balancing characteristics can also negatively mean arrogant, abrasiveness, violent, contentious, imperious, callous, belligerent and/or righteous.

Designing Women? Really?

That show is OLD.

Hells, Dixie Carter died earlier this year.

I saw a Celebrity roast a while back...

"Bea Arthur is so old, that they named the letter "B" after her."