You do, in fact, recall correctly. 
Janeway, Lesbian Icon?
- Thread starter Mr Silver
- Start date
It seems a bit unresonable to put a stop to something, considering that Seven Of Nine turning out as Gay or Bisexual would have been a major positive, sure I don't think Seven Of Nine being the focal character and having her love life as the main plot of the show would have worked, however Seven Of Nine being Gay or Bisexual would have dispelled many myths (such as the classic "Physically Beautiful Women are all Straight" and "Lesbian Women are all Butch") And also given an extra depth to Voyager, perhaps even giving the show some much needed ratings
Homosexuality doesn't exist in Voyager. It does in DS9, but that's a another kettle of fish.
There was no lesbian "subtext" between Seven and janeway, because the writers knew the limits of what they were allowed to do on basically a children's television show when a sizeable fraction, lets call it half, of America KNEW that Homosexuality was out and out wrong and the BIBLE supported them on their logical decision making,
What you're calling "subtext" henbane is obviously transference. You want them to get their gay on, so they get their gay on, in your eyes, and in others eyes and probably 90 percent of the rest of the audience too including my own. The moratorium on homosexuality on Voyager has driven most of the posters here mad that they imagine gayness everywhere like some anthropologist scavenging though Eastern Europe looking for the last unicorn.
I wish there were gay characters and gay undertones and suggestive atmospheres, because it's interesting and leads to possibilities, but there isn't. It's like theres been some sort of gay holocaust in the Voyager universe that no one wants to talk about and no amount of clapping is going to bring them back.
The books of Christie Golden however is a mirror universe were gay is allowed to coexist with Voyager and god help me it thrives that you can basically feel that (have you seen naked lunch?) every time Christie punches the typeface on her keyboard that what she's really doing is making love to Janeway's downstairs area, but TV isn't books because the producers were scared shitless to rock the boat or defy the orders from on high that they shouldn't offend all those people who don't even watch Voyager.
There was no lesbian "subtext" between Seven and janeway, because the writers knew the limits of what they were allowed to do on basically a children's television show when a sizeable fraction, lets call it half, of America KNEW that Homosexuality was out and out wrong and the BIBLE supported them on their logical decision making,
What you're calling "subtext" henbane is obviously transference. You want them to get their gay on, so they get their gay on, in your eyes, and in others eyes and probably 90 percent of the rest of the audience too including my own. The moratorium on homosexuality on Voyager has driven most of the posters here mad that they imagine gayness everywhere like some anthropologist scavenging though Eastern Europe looking for the last unicorn.
I wish there were gay characters and gay undertones and suggestive atmospheres, because it's interesting and leads to possibilities, but there isn't. It's like theres been some sort of gay holocaust in the Voyager universe that no one wants to talk about and no amount of clapping is going to bring them back.
The books of Christie Golden however is a mirror universe were gay is allowed to coexist with Voyager and god help me it thrives that you can basically feel that (have you seen naked lunch?) every time Christie punches the typeface on her keyboard that what she's really doing is making love to Janeway's downstairs area, but TV isn't books because the producers were scared shitless to rock the boat or defy the orders from on high that they shouldn't offend all those people who don't even watch Voyager.
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Must I go through and point out the subtext in everything from season 4 onward?
The seeming anger toward this issue in your post disturbs me.
The seeming anger toward this issue in your post disturbs me.
I'm angry about he lack of gay themes, and distraught about imaginative people who are creating... Remember Sisko being pissed at Vic's program because of how it treated black people "equally" because that was all a rose coloured revision of history which ignored the suffering and persecution of that era? Same difference. Okay maybe we have a different definition of "subtext"? To me subtext is a thought or theme or element intentionally buried in the background by the author to add to his or her process. If the author didn't intend to include and didn't (was ordered not to) consciously or subconsciously include homosexuals, homosexual themes and unspoken love triangles and pairings off, then even season four onwards the subtext isn't there.
Which brings us to transference, that homosexual themes are almost delusionally added to Voyagers stories after the fact and despite the EXCLUSIVE spirit of the programming to satisfy the needs of the viewers who are being excluded.
Voyager barely has heterosexual sex and heterosexual sexuality! Why would anyone consider that after failing to promote a generic and vanilla atmosphere of missionary positions and babies that they would consider themselves capable of graduating into the complicated world of same sex coupling?
Which brings us to transference, that homosexual themes are almost delusionally added to Voyagers stories after the fact and despite the EXCLUSIVE spirit of the programming to satisfy the needs of the viewers who are being excluded.
Voyager barely has heterosexual sex and heterosexual sexuality! Why would anyone consider that after failing to promote a generic and vanilla atmosphere of missionary positions and babies that they would consider themselves capable of graduating into the complicated world of same sex coupling?
You didn't read my previous posts about Janeway//Seven of Nine, did you.
I said there their relationship was that of mother//daughter, not gay in anyway. So obviously no transference "to get their gay on" for me. Maybe I didn't see gay because I'm a heterosexual female - but I doubt it as 2 of my closest female friends are gay. I did see Janeway as a woman who flirted with both sexes, but that alone doesn't immediately make a character gay.
However, subtext is there in most tv shows - for exactly the reasons displayed on this message board - so people can imagine whatever they wish BEYOND the written story and keep talking about it for many many years. Basically it's unresolved storylines, and there is nothing better to keep people hooked than an unresolved plot (just how do you think soaps stay alive for so long....lol).
It has also fueled a lot of "fanfiction" - I haven't read a lot of it as most I have read is.....not very good. I recall Kate Mulgrew talking about fanfiction at a con - she hates it and called it smut. In a way I don't blame her as a lot of it degrades the hard work and effort she put into creating a great female pop icon in Janeway. However, people will be people and some will be driven entirely by the lowest common denominator ie sex. Having said that - it's nothing new and has been going on since time began stories were first told by storytellers.
No, I do not think subtext is always intentional, and that may be why I'm perplexed by the anger displayed and what seems to be disgust with those who support the J/7 shipper fandom.
In addition, I don't watch DS9, so I can't really relate.
However, one of the precious few joys of shipdom is looking for the subtext, intentional or not. It's part of the game.
If one is that angry with the shipper fandom, one may be taking it too seriously.
In addition, I don't watch DS9, so I can't really relate.
However, one of the precious few joys of shipdom is looking for the subtext, intentional or not. It's part of the game.
If one is that angry with the shipper fandom, one may be taking it too seriously.
Sorry henbane, (one of) my (many) problem is that I read every thing and it very quickly gets muddled up. I was scrolling back to see who was saying that subtext was in the eye of the beholder, and after rereading your post for a third time you still qualify for "that" even if you don't think that's what the writers and actors were saying superliminally.
Angry Chook?
Angry Chook?
Admiral, I think "part" of that anger/disgust has already been answered. (Not referring to Guy's post at this point)
As I mentioned weeks ago, one of the reasons I don't like the Chakotay/Seven relationship is because it seemed too much like Woody Allen marrying his exwife's (Mia Farrow) foster daughter, Soo Lin (?).
Since I saw subtext between Janeway & Chakotay, then having Chakotay move on to Seven was just.... icky.
Now forgive me, I realize you see the same subtext between J/7 that I see between J/C.... but please realize if I think Chakotay's relationship with his ex's foster daughter is wrong, then of course I would think a sexual relationship between Janeway and Seven would be wrong.
Oh, and before you ask... YOU BETCHA I think it was extremely inappropriate for the EMH to continue to act as her physician once he realized HE was sexually attracted to Seven. The reasons for this are similar to the J/7 issue. A physician isn't allowed to become involved with his patient because it changes the Doctor Patient relationship. Is he advising her out of the best interests of the patient, or is he advising her because he wants to have the patient gratify him in some way. It colors his statements in "Endgame" in a negative way... that he had been working for weeks to hone the corrective procedures to her cortical implant to allow her to fall in love/have sex without the implant self destructing. Was he doing it to help his patient, or to fill his own gratification?
A parent isn't supposed to become involved with her child for the same reason. The Captain herself would argue THAT is why she doesn't become involved with any of her crew... because it would contaminate those chains of command that govern her society, but its even dicer with a parental relationship and one of the reasons we legislate against incest.
Now... I realize YOU do not see that "Mother/Daughter" relationship. (P.S. Best to avoid my fanfic.) That you might see it more as a mentoring program that evolves into a friendship filled with subtext because the Captain IS the lonely Captain with her many antifraternization rules, and I try to respect that. Even if I don't agree with it.
Now... as for the question of transference...
(ahem... not "water transference"... one of these days you simply must explain what "that" meant.
) ....as for the question that all watchers of Voyager are all being subjected to transferance....well Duhhh!
We ALL SEE WHAT we want to see, whether the author put it there or not. Recently AMG and I chatted about just such ideas over fanfic... Re: what was "placed" vs what was seen.
For years the audience has watched its shows/movies & read their books and they either wanted "TO BE" Kathryn Janeway, or James T Kirk, or Xena. Or they wanted to BE WITH Kathryn Janeway, or James T Kirk or Xena. They've transferred their biases onto the page or the screen, and thats okay. Because if Guy is right, and the authors NEVER purposefully placed a single "subtext" within their work at the express direction of TPTB.... then they wasted their time.
Cuz we saw it anyway.
First of all, read the synopsis for the final episode of Xena. Gabby has to make sure that Xena drinks water from a particular source. Some things happen and, in the end, the only water she can actually transfer to an almost dead Xena was what was left in her mouth. Hence, water transference.
That being said, I was talking specifically about Garnder's post, not yours. But, I try not to single people out because I don't want to flame or troll. I'm making an exception here for you so I can be perfectly clear on what I'm talking about.
Following that, I don't care about the EMH's feelings for Seven. He's a hologram. They can just reprogram him... whatever.
I respect other people's shipper preferences, and I hope that the same respect can be given to mine. Can I see a mentor/student relationship with J/7? Yes. A fool could see it, so don't presume to say what I do and do not see. Have I seen an mentor/student relationship turn into something more? Yes. I have seen that in real life a few times, actually, and it's turned out well for both parties.
Do I think the writers intended it that way? No. Do I think it's fun to look for the subtext anyway? Hell yes. Otherwise, I wouldn't bother talking about it.
Now, I try very hard not to get riled by the TrekBBS. There was time when that was not always the case. Here, on this board, I'm really easy to get along with most of the time. I've relaxed with age. But, if you want to get my full take on anything else here in this thread about J/7 and what I don't like about the aggressive negativity on that shipper like, I suggest a PM.
That being said, I was talking specifically about Garnder's post, not yours. But, I try not to single people out because I don't want to flame or troll. I'm making an exception here for you so I can be perfectly clear on what I'm talking about.
Following that, I don't care about the EMH's feelings for Seven. He's a hologram. They can just reprogram him... whatever.
I respect other people's shipper preferences, and I hope that the same respect can be given to mine. Can I see a mentor/student relationship with J/7? Yes. A fool could see it, so don't presume to say what I do and do not see. Have I seen an mentor/student relationship turn into something more? Yes. I have seen that in real life a few times, actually, and it's turned out well for both parties.
Do I think the writers intended it that way? No. Do I think it's fun to look for the subtext anyway? Hell yes. Otherwise, I wouldn't bother talking about it.
Now, I try very hard not to get riled by the TrekBBS. There was time when that was not always the case. Here, on this board, I'm really easy to get along with most of the time. I've relaxed with age. But, if you want to get my full take on anything else here in this thread about J/7 and what I don't like about the aggressive negativity on that shipper like, I suggest a PM.
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I have all of Xena, I keep meaning to watch it.
The EMH was just a pervert.
Waiting till he had made her perfect before he asked her out all the while she was making herself perfect for Chakotay who "loved" her no matter her current imperfections. That's like waiting till after her nosejob to ask out the girl with the marvellous personality.
I would hardly classify Chuckles Seven's stepfather (but I would the EMH.). Chakotays first nurturing act towards the woman was attempted murder followed by an unending torrent of racism (Borgism.). If they could have spent half a season building up to the two of them falling in love, I would have been down with that, but they producers/writers blew it
I remember once on Fiends near the end when the rest had paired off, Phoebe said something to Joey like "Well, I guess it just you and me left now."
And henbane I said "super'liminal. It's a Simpsons Joke from the one they joined a boyband. In grades of forcefulness: "Subliminal", then "Liminal" then "Superliminal".
The EMH was just a pervert.
Waiting till he had made her perfect before he asked her out all the while she was making herself perfect for Chakotay who "loved" her no matter her current imperfections. That's like waiting till after her nosejob to ask out the girl with the marvellous personality.
I would hardly classify Chuckles Seven's stepfather (but I would the EMH.). Chakotays first nurturing act towards the woman was attempted murder followed by an unending torrent of racism (Borgism.). If they could have spent half a season building up to the two of them falling in love, I would have been down with that, but they producers/writers blew it
I remember once on Fiends near the end when the rest had paired off, Phoebe said something to Joey like "Well, I guess it just you and me left now."
And henbane I said "super'liminal. It's a Simpsons Joke from the one they joined a boyband. In grades of forcefulness: "Subliminal", then "Liminal" then "Superliminal".
Poor Seven. To some people she's just the SEX bait for VOY. To other people she isn't even mature enough to have an adult relationship! How can both of these things be true..
7's emotional and social development was arrested by assimilation at the a young age by the Borg as we all know.. BUT she did not act or relate as a 7 year old. A maturing process took place even when part of the collective. Perhaps it's unavoidable when you are experiencing so many different lives and ways of being, perhaps the maturing took place in Unimatrix Zero. Whatever it was 7 came across as an adult. An often confused and socially awkward adult but not a child. She was highly intelligent, great at her (adult) work and interested in becoming adept at adult relationships, first in a social sense and later in a sexual/relationship sense. She was vulnerable but she was an adult. As such she was fully capable of entering into a relationship with Chakotay or Janeway or the Doctor, the only thing standing in her way was workplace protocols.
7's emotional and social development was arrested by assimilation at the a young age by the Borg as we all know.. BUT she did not act or relate as a 7 year old. A maturing process took place even when part of the collective. Perhaps it's unavoidable when you are experiencing so many different lives and ways of being, perhaps the maturing took place in Unimatrix Zero. Whatever it was 7 came across as an adult. An often confused and socially awkward adult but not a child. She was highly intelligent, great at her (adult) work and interested in becoming adept at adult relationships, first in a social sense and later in a sexual/relationship sense. She was vulnerable but she was an adult. As such she was fully capable of entering into a relationship with Chakotay or Janeway or the Doctor, the only thing standing in her way was workplace protocols.
You forgot the cortical implant.
Borg technology that puts her in a coma if she ever has too healthy/strong an emotional reaction.
Which should have been tapped if there were any underlying subconscious connections between her waking life and Unimatrix Zero.
Borg technology that puts her in a coma if she ever has too healthy/strong an emotional reaction.
Which should have been tapped if there were any underlying subconscious connections between her waking life and Unimatrix Zero.
That's just bad writing.
Seconded
The whole "Cortical Implant" was a piss poor way out for the writing team to explain why Seven Of Nine isn't more "Emotional", changing their minds once again they decided that it could be removed and thus an entire episode "Imperfection" was made pointless, I guess another example of the "Reset Switch"
Generally speaking, although i'm a fan of VOY, the parts that did ruin it for me, were generally to do with how the writers handled Seven Of Nine's character
No, it was their attempt to set up Icheb and Seven.
That kid loved her so much (A boy of any age is allowed to hit on a hot older woman. Nothing creepy. it's the older womans job as the ADULT to put him in his place or be creepy. Though was Icheb at least 16 in season 6? later he certainly thought age wasn't in the way of B'Elanna "winning" him in some klingon romance brawl if he had to fight Tubby Tom to the death for the right to make babies with the Chief Engineer.) he ripped out part of his brain and gave it to her.
(Van Gough anyone?)
Though the reset button kicked in and that 'ship was never mentioned again, however it is possible that since he no longer had a cortical implant RETARDING his emotional development and inflection, he began to realize what the tiny thimbleful of affection it was that he had felt or Seven of Nine compared what his brain, heart and hormones were capable of now, that his capacity for LUST had been shifted from park into 5th gear, had redetermined his options and positions within Voyager's dating scene/pool and the little Borgling had decided on less logical and pragmatic selections of the fe/male compliment to focus on.
That kid loved her so much (A boy of any age is allowed to hit on a hot older woman. Nothing creepy. it's the older womans job as the ADULT to put him in his place or be creepy. Though was Icheb at least 16 in season 6? later he certainly thought age wasn't in the way of B'Elanna "winning" him in some klingon romance brawl if he had to fight Tubby Tom to the death for the right to make babies with the Chief Engineer.) he ripped out part of his brain and gave it to her.
(Van Gough anyone?)
Though the reset button kicked in and that 'ship was never mentioned again, however it is possible that since he no longer had a cortical implant RETARDING his emotional development and inflection, he began to realize what the tiny thimbleful of affection it was that he had felt or Seven of Nine compared what his brain, heart and hormones were capable of now, that his capacity for LUST had been shifted from park into 5th gear, had redetermined his options and positions within Voyager's dating scene/pool and the little Borgling had decided on less logical and pragmatic selections of the fe/male compliment to focus on.
I never really got why people saw Seven as child like. Right from the start she teased Harry for being attracted to her. She just seemed to busy with her borg need for perfection at first and seemed more interested with studying human interactions than getting involved. Yes she had things to learn but it never seemed like a child learning to me. I got the student/mentor relationship between Seven and Janeway but the mother/daughter thing never crossed my mind and as a J/7 shipper it grossed me out to hear other people saw it that way. I do sometimes wonder if I'm seeing lesbian subtext where it was not intended but I often find out later that it was intended. Buffy/Faith subtext was there because Faith was seducing Buffy into being bad (apparently Eliza Dushku added to it). Also I wasn't completely wrong about Blair/Serena on Gossip Girl since Blair did have a crush on Serena in the book. I'm always surprised when other people don't notice the subtext, Buffy/Faith seemed especially obvious to me, I guess that is the clever thing about subtext the crazy religious types mostly won't notice.
They should have had a gay character on Voyager, Seven would have been a good choice since she didn't have much chance to explore her sexuality in the collective. Janeway/Seven couldn't happen but I would have thought it would be more believable to have Holojaneway as a love interest instead of Holochakotay (Holojaneway did seem quite flirty with Seven in the fake baby shower). Guess I will hafta settle for the slightly gay episodes of DS9.
The cortical implant represses strong feelings, it doesn't repress maturity or the process of maturing. 7 was very much a woman of the mind, her intellect dominated her relationships. It makes sense to me that many strong emotions took longer to develop for 7 (though it completely ignores fear which she obviously experienced in a few eps).
Anyway it has nothing to do with her maturing out of childhood into adulthood.
!!!!
That would have been waaaaay too much for TPTB to handle, the fantasy Holojaneway. Shows you how stunted the standard is though since they were perfectly fine about the Doctor programming fantasy naked 7 to paint. Blech. That would have been a great storyline.
HAHAHA the "slightly gay episodes".
O'Brien: I like you better than my wife Julian.
There ya go, Trek's big foray into the scary world of same sex relationships.
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Maybe Johnson is referring to the Borg Queen making out with Jadzia Dax in that one episode if not the many many many homosexuals in the mirror universe?
Why do you think that Seven was teasing Dim kim Johnson? Seemed to me she wanted to see what sex was like and since he was incapable of being surreptitious, she decided to take advantage of his eagerness... But it seems that Kim is afraid of strong women who take the lead. What an odd character flaw to include into a post post post post modern man that he was only capable of making love to her on his terms after a significant set of mating rituals to ease his fit little body into a state of nudity.
This is one of the many reaosn's I hate him.
You take a seven year old. tell her to go to sleep for twenty years.
When she wakes up do, you expect her to have the mind of a 7 year old or a 27 year old?
Seven of Nine might technically be mature from being awake the whole time that the Borg were using her like a puppet and Borg mental programming, but she never went through the empirical process of "maturing".
She cheated.
her brain is on autopilot.
Which is why she is so bollocks with the social stuff.
She is mature without knowing why she is mature or how she is being mature.
The closest event Voyager has had to a Gay moment was when that bloke tried to hit on the Doctor during Body and Soul who was piloting seven of Nines Body and he squirted a raw dollop of homophobia, since obviously there are nicer ways to let a guy down than framing your rejection with all that disgust which was written so plainly all over the Doctors face.
Why do you think that Seven was teasing Dim kim Johnson? Seemed to me she wanted to see what sex was like and since he was incapable of being surreptitious, she decided to take advantage of his eagerness... But it seems that Kim is afraid of strong women who take the lead. What an odd character flaw to include into a post post post post modern man that he was only capable of making love to her on his terms after a significant set of mating rituals to ease his fit little body into a state of nudity.
This is one of the many reaosn's I hate him.
You take a seven year old. tell her to go to sleep for twenty years.
When she wakes up do, you expect her to have the mind of a 7 year old or a 27 year old?
Seven of Nine might technically be mature from being awake the whole time that the Borg were using her like a puppet and Borg mental programming, but she never went through the empirical process of "maturing".
She cheated.
her brain is on autopilot.
Which is why she is so bollocks with the social stuff.
She is mature without knowing why she is mature or how she is being mature.
The closest event Voyager has had to a Gay moment was when that bloke tried to hit on the Doctor during Body and Soul who was piloting seven of Nines Body and he squirted a raw dollop of homophobia, since obviously there are nicer ways to let a guy down than framing your rejection with all that disgust which was written so plainly all over the Doctors face.
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