Janeway, Lesbian Icon?

[Guy Gardener]

Just about every famous "gay" is a hetrosexual icon.

Gross generalizations dictate that women dig the homo's because they swear that they can "turn" them, and men gig the lesbians because it's finally a woman who doesn't want them to do anything. At all. Ever.

 

[froot]

I'm not quite understanding how a character who prefers long-term relationships/monogamy = sexless or "Victorian." That's a statement I take issue with in life in general, actually. It is untrue and unfair to those of us who are a little like this.

And I especially can't see how modern Trek is sexless. Sex isn't usually at the forefront of the show, this is true, but it is there.

And vas, I do understand where you're coming from as a married pre-30 straight female myself. It could very well be the character's (actress') attitude and mojo, although it's certainly hard to pin down.

 

[Adm_Hawthorne]

Again, there is a group out there called "Straight Girls Hot for Kate", so you ladies are not alone.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Froot...

Weekly Kirk saw some huge testosterony alien with god powers hellbent on destroying the galaxy, but Jim's only question was "How hot is your girlfriend?"

That was the 60s.

Fun stories.

The 90s had TV created inside a politically correct climate where it was cited as all important to limit any content that might rattle the most fragile of minds and damn the poor bastards aching for a good rhomp of sex and violence who can handle sexually exploitive shows like Magnum PI.

Picard didn't shag Majel Barret over and over over again no matter how fervently she offered herself up on a plate, and he was chaste when Jean Grey practically raped him telepathically, and Vash was so pissed about how he never bragged about what she did to him in that sleeping bag, and it took the doctor 7 years (37 years) to notice that he was in love with her, hell it took the monkey primate of a first officer 10 years to finally bed and wed his IMzadi, and she was about as piss poor on the uptake as he was, not that she didn't have twice and many Will Rikers to plumb as one would think surely existed and still wasted away pining after naught. Worf lived to exude musk, but still it was the women who told him he was in a relationshipship and that it was he who should lay down and become ready for the sex. Sex to the point of children or marriage is not sexy. Disqualified. I have seen more sexual fortitude from Lisa Simpson than I ever did from Geordi LaForge no matter how many times he thought he had fallen in love, and Geordi is still three times the man Harry Kim is. The wrong twin? God and saints preserve me.

Sisko was done. He's found his true love had a kid and she died. He just had to coast along till he died. Completely spent. Julian was not as cute as he thought he was and so what if he got a pretty dabo girl was into him, so did Jake... So did Rom! DS9 had love stories. Love stories are good but still not as much animus as I need.

Voy? 150 people stuck in a... How many seasons of big brother had wound up with some one getting pregnant inside the house? Tuvok was married and only mated every seven years, B'Elanna married to babies. Disqualified. Tom, since he had babies with Kes, Janeway and B'Elanna, that sort of requalifies him as a literal stud. Everyone elses sperm might have been broken. Janeway as much as declared to the Doctor that no one would respect her if she had a fling with anyone ever, and even I suppose if she saw a future in that fling in the case of the Workforce bloke where, she said that he could ride along but not in her bunk. Did you know that Seven of Nine was a Virgin?

I've started posts asking if they were all chemically castrated as a command decision? After a seventy year journey we could have expected at least 4 generations in the workforce demanding ships resources that they never would have had the ability to sustain their population especially if Kes' lineage kept pairing off with humans that by the time they got home, the final fractionally ocampan issue could be calling every single remaining crewman on the ships gramps and/or granny.

The doctor called Vulcans "Victorian" in Bloodfever.

It's a good word completely part of the Voyager lexicon.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

All I can think of is that Convention where Mulgrew invited her spouse up on stage to answer some questions. After he sat down, someone asked if she minded being a sex symbol in the lesbian community. Kate turned to her husband and asked if HE minded... and he stood up, walked across the stage before coming up with a great retort.

"Well, it doubles your chances of getting a date on Saturday Nights."

 

[Adm_Hawthorne]

As if she needed the help!

 

[JanewayRulz!]

Gross generalizations dictate that women dig...

Uhhhh, not sure who thought up that idea, but speaking specifically, wrong! I'm not interested in turning anyone some direction they don't want to be traveling in the first place.

I suspect that what our married ladies above are trying to say, is that they do see something inherently attractive in the persona of Captain Kathryn Janeway as portrayed by Kate Mulgrew.

I've been killing time reviewing Xena stuff tonight... and I found out some interesting stuff. Not only was Lucy Lawless not the first or 2nd choice for Xena... she wasn't dark skinned enough to portray the Greek Warlord, so they bronzed her (makeup wise). Her hair was the wrong color, so the (wig?) went long and blacker. And, to TOP it all off, the 5 foot 9 1/2 inch (173.75 cm)woman wasn't TALL enough... so they put 2+inch lifts in her boots to get her near 6 feet.

So... here I am, sitting back and thinking TPTB made a hero that women are programmed to respond to. Tall, Dark, and Handsome.

THAT alone got Xena's foot in the iconic doorway of straight and lesbian fans alike.

As I watched the vids of the "tall, dark, handsome" lead run around smiting people with her long or round sword (talk about two VERY different "symbols), often rescuing her shorter blond, cute sidekick... I began to wonder about the similarities, and the differences with Janeway.

Size? I think in her heels, the only one Janeway is taller than would be B'Elanna. (Both women are the same height barefoot, IIRC) Janeway is almost always looking up into someone's eyes... SHE's the one others tower over... and yet she is as "in charge" of Voyager as Xena is in her ancient landscape.

We won't even bother talking about "coloring", but I'm struck by how over the years, Janeway's hair has not only been a source of amusement but of great beauty. Something that can be equally said of Xena's mane.

Xena/Lucy's eyes in her music vids are as striking as Janeway/Mulgrew's... but thankfully the older and less damaged (?) Janeway doesn't go as crazy/ballistic as frequently as Xena.

The other characteristic they share is their intense love (perhaps more "intense" between Xena & Gabby?) for their traveling companions, and desire/need to protect them. Unfortunately, a natural byproduct is an inordinate helping of guilt to color their actions.

Still, that intensity can be quite an aphrodiasiac, whether its being exuded by the hero or the heroine.

Here's a great example of the intensity I'm alluding too, in a Xena vid...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tw_gt7nhE-I

And another great example of that intensity in a Janeway vid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZrPPP4R8Nc&playnext_from=TL&videos=pvPmMSkteJQ

I know she's not everyone's cup of tea... but I WOULD follow that woman to Hell and back if I was a member of her crew.

 

[froot]

It rubbed me the wrong way when Doc called Tuvok "Victorian," too. He insulted both his culture and his biology. What right did Doc have to judge? Vulcans are a private people.

I'm not sure what you expect. The way TOS handled sex? Big for its time maybe, but dated now.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I allow for deflation when reviewing historic media. Expectations lowered and such. Permitting sexism and cliches not to be too stayed, because saddly mostly the role of a woman in such old stories is to be a receptical of animus.

In one of Peter David's New Frontier Novels some one tried to claim to Shelby that Kirks reputation as a Cassanova had to be overrated, to wit Eppy replied that Kirk had slept with both her grandmother as well as her great aunt.

In the Star Trek the Motion Picture Novelization, written by Roddenberry, it was assituated that all humans in the Star trek universe were bisexual EXCEPT Kirk. Page 8, a footnote at the bottom of the page.

The Doctor's personality is supposed to be that of complete ass remember. He's supposed to be grating and short with people with little bedside manner. It's when they write him as an understanding nice guy that they are fucking up his personality, not that he wasn't supposed to be gently softening into something bearable over the years in theory.

Fun facts! I have been told, Queen Victoria abided with the outlawing of male Homosexuality. Ask Oscar Wilde about that. But she refused to outlaw lesbians because she didn't want young girls to know that such things were possible.

I saw an episode where Gabriel and Xena made out. One of them was Freejacking Bruce Campbells body at the time but I had some very gay friends (my university years) who kept talking about the rightwing conspiracy that was holding back the destiny these two women had to fall into one anothers arems every night.

 

[Deckerd]

The Doctor's personality is supposed to be that of complete ass remember. He's supposed to be grating and short with people with little bedside manner. It's when they write him as an understanding nice guy that they are fucking up his personality, not that he wasn't supposed to be gently softening into something bearable over the years in theory.

I'm glad he didn't. At the end he was the only truly refreshing character left.

 

[john titor]

I think the more important question to ask is whether Janeway is a lesbian? I think she had something going on with 7 of 9.

 

[henbane]

Naa - Janeway wasn't lesbian. She had a mother-daughter type relationship with Seven. Sure there is subtext - but that's inherent in most tv shows...it's a basic element in writing/acting in television shows designed to appeal to the masses.

 

[Adm_Hawthorne]

There are those of us out there who support the J/7 relationship. The subtext was strong with those two.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I think the more important question to ask is whether Janeway is a lesbian? I think she had something going on with 7 of 9.

Janeway/Seven is molesting parent/teacher territory. Disgusting.

 

[Adm_Hawthorne]

I would respectfully disagree with you.

 

[henbane]

There are those of us out there who support the J/7 relationship. The subtext was strong with those two.

Subtext is there to be interpreted in whatever way the viewer sees it. That's precisely why it's written//acted into tv series. Why have one story when you can have 3 or 4 - great for ratings too!

 

[Adm_Hawthorne]

Yes, that would be the point. No one's said otherwise.

 

[Dusty Ayres]

I think the more important question to ask is whether Janeway is a lesbian? I think she had something going on with 7 of 9.

Janeway/Seven is molesting parent/teacher territory. Disgusting.

I would respectfully disagree with you.

There are those of us out there who support the J/7 relationship. The subtext was strong with those two.

I see the same thing with Kim Possible and Shego from Kim Possible!

 

[Adm_Hawthorne]

I could see that.

 

[Mr Silver]

The way I see it, given the fan reponse, Jeri Ryan and Kate Mulgrew were scripted to lay down some subtle "same sex attraction" undertones, however IIRC, Brannon Braga put a stop to the suggestion that Seven Of Nine would turn out as Lesbian or even Bisexual