Janeway Died? In Which Book?

[Lynx]

No. He only cares about characters he likes. He said so.

EDIT: Theron's too quick for me.

No!

You've got me wrong here. I'm against killing off main characters as a principle. I would have been as angry and annoyed if it had been Chakotay, Neelix, Riker, Worf or any of our favorites from the different Trek series.

Except not:

Since I don't have the same affection for the characters in those books as I have for the VOY, TNG and DS9 characters, it might be easier to accept possible "changes" in those books, if such changes occur.

Please note that I wrote "it might be easier to accept possible changes".

I didn't state that I would downright accept such changes.

 

[David Mack]

May I ask and this is pretty much aimed at Mr Mack as he wrote Destiny; did you ever consider killing Picard at any point in the Trilogy?

Not even once. The plan for the trilogy was never to destroy Picard's life but to transform it. He needed to confront his inability to defeat the Borg and put aside his pride and his anger long enough to surrender to what he could not change. It was only then that he was free.

 

[ClayinCA]

However, I still have some affection for Voyager and there's a chance that I can keep that affection alive-if I skip the "official" Star Trek with all the character destruction and stick with fanfiction instead. As for books, I can always re-read "The Black Shore" and some of the other classics for the umphteenth time, not to mention re-watching the episodes in seasons 1-3 of Voyager and all episodes of TNG on DVD.

Not to mention continuing to savagely attack this dead horse of a topic.

Well, I'm not a hardcore Janeway fan either

We need a spit-take smilie on this board.

QFT. Lynx, you've gone on and on ad nauseum about how her death has ruined your enjoyment of the series. If you don't consider this hardcore, then I am confused.

Yeah, me too. This much sound and fury for a character you don't even particularly care about?!? I'd hate to see what kind of a storm you'd kick up if you did consider yourself a "hardcore" fan of whichever character you feel has been "annihilated"....

Does that mean this? (I did a google search... :/ )

or

Those are brilliant (I particularly like the first one)! What's the code for it, if you don't mind my asking?

And yes, I'm p***ed off by the fact that those in charge doesn't care about if they make many fans angry and upset. It's the same s****y, arrogant, superior attitude which those in charge of the TV series did show up when they destroyed the character Kes in "Fury" and gave the J/C:ers the finger with the Seven-Chakotay thing in "Endgame". I useed to think that those responsible for the books had a better understanding for the fans and cared more for the characters than berman's gang but obviously I was wrong.

Dude, you really don't see that statements like that are insulting to the writers of these books?

OK, I might not be able to change the minds of those in charge because they simply don't care but at least I can state my opinion about it which is exactly what I'm doing.

....again and again and again, with seemingly no meaningful intent....

And believe me, this debate is far from over, it has just started.

Now there's a threat if ever I've heard one...!

Please note that I wrote "it might be easier to accept possible changes".

I didn't state that I would downright accept such changes.

Well, I'm sure everyone's worried to death about whether or not their work meets with your approval.

 

[Thrawn]

And believe me, this debate is far from over, it has just started.

Actually no, this debate is over. You've now restated exactly the same nonsense for about the 17th time, so I'm done arguing with you.

No one is dismissing you, or any other fan. The point is that ANY DECISION THEY MAKE PISSES OFF SOMEONE, AND MAKES SOMEONE ELSE HAPPY. The previous Voyager relaunch pissed me off; the new direction makes me happy. That's a sale they gained, and a fan they made happier. In your case, it went the other direction - a sale they lost, and a fan they made sadder. And EVERY DECISION has the same consequences - some people like it, some don't.

I am not dismissing any fan's opinion as irrelevant, I'm saying that no matter what, some fans are going to be mad. This is true with this decision, just like it is with any other decision. They made the call; they thought it'd make a better story. Even if they MADE THE CALL YOU WANTED, other people would've STILL been pissed - just not you.

My point has never been that you were irrelevant; just that your opinion is exactly as relevant as every single other fan's opinion is. Just because you personally are offended doesn't make this a bad choice, just like if I were personally offended (and you liked it), that wouldn't make it a bad choice. It's just a choice. A surprising one, yes, but there's been CLEAR evidence in this thread that it made many people MORE interested in the relaunch, so it certainly doesn't seem to be hurting overall fan approval.

Might it affect sales? Sure. But you don't KNOW that yet, and your "feelings" and "guesses" about the size of the Janeway fandom that 1) would've bought the books before and 2) won't now is not sufficient evidence to prove dick-all about anything whatsoever.

But please, feel free to continue making your opinion heard.

Feel free to continue informing us that The Fans are mad, despite the fact that many of us - who are fans - aren't.

Feel free to continue trying to convince people that Janeway's death was a bad decision, despite your evident failure to convince even one person in this thread so far.

Feel free to continue to claim to speak for the giant masses of angered Janeway fans, despite the fact that on at least one occasion a fellow angered Janeway fan has told you that you don't represent them at all.

Feel free to continue to accuse the writers and editors - who got into this job in the first place because they love this material so much (it sure as hell doesn't pay that great) - of not loving the show as much as you, despite the fact that it's insulting and idiotic.

Feel free to continue to ignore the obvious statistical reality that no particularly focused group of fans such as the obsessive Janeway lovers are big enough to affect any set of sales, and what's more, that any decision made at this scale pisses off at least one fan group like that anyway, so it's not like they could avoid it.

And finally, please feel free to continue believing that your opinion is more valid than all of those who disagree with you, just because (apparently) you have a "feeling" that other people somewhere else in the world think you're right...or might, someday...or something.

But I'm done going around in circles.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Fictitious Scenario: to satisfy Lynx and "The Fans", editor Margaret Clark posts that, from now on, all TrekLit deaths are hereby reversed - and no character whom anyone has ever cared about will die in a Star Trek comic, short story or novel in the future.

The only characters who can die, be written out, get married, have babies, get sick, turn gay, lose a limb, are the authors' original characters, but... if one of them ever becomes A Beloved Character, then they, too, must be added to The List of immortal Star Trek characters.

Who still wants to read Star Trek tie-ins now?

Bleh!

 

[Ktrek]

LYNX - You still do NOT get that you do NOT speak for all fans of Janeway! You are only one fan with an obsessive viewpoint who is taking the creative decisions the writers of the shows and books are purposely snubbing you. That their decisions are done to inflame controversy and piss off fans like yourself. I have news for you...they are NOT! I fully appreciate your love for your favorite characters but I am sure that when the editorial decision was made to have Janeway die that fan feelings and concerns were addressed but obviously the decision was made to move the story forward and not maintain the status quo. If the same stagnation had happened with the character of Picard as what happened to Janeway they probably would have killed him off but they did not. Please stop taking things on as if no consideration was given. If you don't like the direction the editors and authors of the books and shows have taken fine but stop insisting that it was the wrong decision and that you being one fan speak for all Janeway and Kes fans because you absolutely do NOT!

Kevin

 

[William Leisner]

Fictitious Scenario: to satisfy Lynx and "The Fans", editor Margaret Clark posts that, from now on, all TrekLit deaths are hereby reversed - and no character whom anyone has ever cared about will die in a Star Trek comic, short story or novel in the future.

The only characters who can die, be written out, get married, have babies, get sick, turn gay, lose a limb, are the authors' original characters, but... if one of them ever becomes A Beloved Character, then they, too, must be added to The List of immortal Star Trek characters.

Who still wants to read Star Trek tie-ins now?

Bleh!

And we could call the series STAR TREK: RESET BUTTON

 

[Lynx]

And believe me, this debate is far from over, it has just started.

Actually no, this debate is over. You've now restated exactly the same nonsense for about the 17th time, so I'm done arguing with you.

No one is dismissing you, or any other fan. The point is that ANY DECISION THEY MAKE PISSES OFF SOMEONE, AND MAKES SOMEONE ELSE HAPPY. The previous Voyager relaunch pissed me off; the new direction makes me happy. That's a sale they gained, and a fan they made happier. In your case, it went the other direction - a sale they lost, and a fan they made sadder. And EVERY DECISION has the same consequences - some people like it, some don't.

I am not dismissing any fan's opinion as irrelevant, I'm saying that no matter what, some fans are going to be mad. This is true with this decision, just like it is with any other decision. They made the call; they thought it'd make a better story. Even if they MADE THE CALL YOU WANTED, other people would've STILL been pissed - just not you.

My point has never been that you were irrelevant; just that your opinion is exactly as relevant as every single other fan's opinion is. Just because you personally are offended doesn't make this a bad choice, just like if I were personally offended (and you liked it), that wouldn't make it a bad choice. It's just a choice. A surprising one, yes, but there's been CLEAR evidence in this thread that it made many people MORE interested in the relaunch, so it certainly doesn't seem to be hurting overall fan approval.

Might it affect sales? Sure. But you don't KNOW that yet, and your "feelings" and "guesses" about the size of the Janeway fandom that 1) would've bought the books before and 2) won't now is not sufficient evidence to prove dick-all about anything whatsoever.

But please, feel free to continue making your opinion heard.

Feel free to continue informing us that The Fans are mad, despite the fact that many of us - who are fans - aren't.

Feel free to continue trying to convince people that Janeway's death was a bad decision, despite your evident failure to convince even one person in this thread so far.

Feel free to continue to claim to speak for the giant masses of angered Janeway fans, despite the fact that on at least one occasion a fellow angered Janeway fan has told you that you don't represent them at all.

Feel free to continue to accuse the writers and editors - who got into this job in the first place because they love this material so much (it sure as hell doesn't pay that great) - of not loving the show as much as you, despite the fact that it's insulting and idiotic.

Feel free to continue to ignore the obvious statistical reality that no particularly focused group of fans such as the obsessive Janeway lovers are big enough to affect any set of sales, and what's more, that any decision made at this scale pisses off at least one fan group like that anyway, so it's not like they could avoid it.

And finally, please feel free to continue believing that your opinion is more valid than all of those who disagree with you, just because (apparently) you have a "feeling" that other people somewhere else in the world think you're right...or might, someday...or something.

But I'm done going around in circles.

This debate may be over for you and for me as well but it will continue here and on other forums when it's common knowledge that Janeway is killed off permanently, something that many fans of Voyager in common and Janeway in particular don't know yet.

And no, you can't state it as evidence that some majority likes the "new direction" only because of the approval from some fans here who seem to be more fans of the authors than of the series or certain characters in it.

Just a question: Why is the new direction of the relaunch making you happy? Because Janeway is gone?

OK, I wasn't that happy with the relaunch as it was before but at least I found it acceptable and I did have some hopes and expectations for it. This new direction stinks.

Calling it a Voyager relaunch is actually a joke and false marketing when there are very few real Voyager characters left and the main character is killed off. I guess that those who have recently discovered the series and buys the books in order to read more about their favorite characters will be surprised, to say the least.

 

[Lynx]

LYNX - You still do NOT get that you do NOT speak for all fans of Janeway! You are only one fan with an obsessive viewpoint who is taking the creative decisions the writers of the shows and books are purposely snubbing you. That their decisions are done to inflame controversy and piss off fans like yourself. I have news for you...they are NOT! I fully appreciate your love for your favorite characters but I am sure that when the editorial decision was made to have Janeway die that fan feelings and concerns were addressed but obviously the decision was made to move the story forward and not maintain the status quo. If the same stagnation had happened with the character of Picard as what happened to Janeway they probably would have killed him off but they did not. Please stop taking things on as if no consideration was given. If you don't like the direction the editors and authors of the books and shows have taken fine but stop insisting that it was the wrong decision and that you being one fan speak for all Janeway and Kes fans because you absolutely do NOT!

Kevin

Excuse me, but what stagnation? If the character had stagnated, then why didn't those smart guys find a way to write her out of that stagnation instead of simply killing off the character. That was a cheap solution in that case.

And yes, I think that the "new direction is wrong and downright stupid.

I also dropped the bomb about Janeway being permanently killed off on a forum where I know that there are many ardent Janeway fans posting (but I didn't mention the TrekBBS as the source for the information so don't worry).

You don't want to know the reaction I got, do you?

 

[Thrawn]

Just a question: Why is the new direction of the relaunch making you happy? Because Janeway is gone?

Just an answer (one I already gave you several pages back...but never mind that): It is essential to my enjoyment of science fiction that the human element be as realistic as possible, which includes characters changing, moving on to other occupations, suffering horrible tragedies, getting married... and dying. In order for me to enjoy any story, I must believe that anything that could reasonably happen to a particular character in "reality" by that universe's rules is something the author is willing to potentially consider. Making a certain set of characters off limits to death cheapens the entire experience for me, making me less likely to purchase the books.

Did it have to be Janeway? No. But the power in the choice of Janeway is that she was such a prominent beloved character. This has a few advantages:

1) It shows us how people react to a truly tragic death of a truly powerful individual, which is different from a redshirt, or even a comparatively minor main character.

2) It's a statement that no one in the Trek universe is safe from the realities of life (which include death), not even the leads; it makes all future stories about Picard and anyone else much more dramatic. Which, incidentally, I feel is necessary after Trip was revived, and all the hoops they jumped through to make that happen; reality had to be restored.

3) Janeway, the character, was an Admiral now, meaning she wasn't captain of the ship anyway, and would play only a minor role regardless. I think it's a much more powerful testament to the strength of her character to see how everyone reacts to her absence than to have her presence be minor, useless, and unnecessary.

In general, it is because I like Janeway so much as a character that I found this death powerful and meaningful. If she'd been someone I didn't care about, it would've been pointless.

And I do realize you disagree, and I'm fine with that. If you want to stop reading, more power to you; I can certainly see how this direction would put you off. It's all that other BS you spew that has annoyed me, and that I will no longer respond to.

 

[ClayinCA]

So...are we done now? (he said hopefully)

 

[Sci]

And yes, I'm p***ed off by the fact that those in charge doesn't care about if they make many fans angry and upset. It's the same s****y, arrogant, superior attitude which those in charge of the TV series did show up when they destroyed the character Kes in "Fury" and gave the J/C:ers the finger with the Seven-Chakotay thing in "Endgame". I useed to think that those responsible for the books had a better understanding for the fans and cared more for the characters than berman's gang but obviously I was wrong.

See, Lynx, this is what I and others find objectionable about what you've been saying. Not the fact that you disagree with the decision to kill Janeway, but the fact that you attribute that decision and other creative decisions to a "shitty, arrogant, superior attitude" of "not caring about if they make many fans angry and upset." In other words, you engage in an ad hominem attack and accuse them of arrogance and gross unprofessionalism.

The authors and editors have made it clear numerous times that they do care, but that they are also aware that any decision they make will anger some and delight others, often in equal amounts. Therefore, they cannot base their decisions on what "the fans" want, since there is no consensus. This has been explained to you numerous times.

If anyone has treated you in a disrespectful manner since this debate started, it is because you have continued to be disrespectful to the authors and editors by choosing to interpret their creative decision as a deliberate "Fuck you" to the audience even after they've explained that it was no such thing. Because why should they treat a fan with respect if he refuses to treat them with respect, and instead attributes their creative decisions to imaginary malice?

 

[Lynx]

And yes, I'm p***ed off by the fact that those in charge doesn't care about if they make many fans angry and upset. It's the same s****y, arrogant, superior attitude which those in charge of the TV series did show up when they destroyed the character Kes in "Fury" and gave the J/C:ers the finger with the Seven-Chakotay thing in "Endgame". I useed to think that those responsible for the books had a better understanding for the fans and cared more for the characters than berman's gang but obviously I was wrong.

See, Lynx, this is what I and others find objectionable about what you've been saying. Not the fact that you disagree with the decision to kill Janeway, but the fact that you attribute that decision and other creative decisions to a "shitty, arrogant, superior attitude" of "not caring about if they make many fans angry and upset." In other words, you engage in an ad hominem attack and accuse them of arrogance and gross unprofessionalism.

The authors and editors have made it clear numerous times that they do care, but that they are also aware that any decision they make will anger some and delight others, often in equal amounts. Therefore, they cannot base their decisions on what "the fans" want, since there is no consensus. This has been explained to you numerous times.

If anyone has treated you in a disrespectful manner since this debate started, it is because you have continued to be disrespectful to the authors and editors by choosing to interpret their creative decision as a deliberate "Fuck you" to the audience even after they've explained that it was no such thing. Because why should they treat a fan with respect if he refuses to treat them with respect, and instead attributes their creative decisions to imaginary malice?

Oh come on! They kill off a main character, in this case the main character of the series for no acceptable reason and they seem to believe that everyone should applaud it and find it creative.

I don't find their decision "creative", only destructive and meaningless.

And yes, I'm p***ed off. Once again my interest for Star Trek have suffered a heavy blow from "people in charge".

 

[Sci]

See, Lynx, this is what I and others find objectionable about what you've been saying. Not the fact that you disagree with the decision to kill Janeway, but the fact that you attribute that decision and other creative decisions to a "shitty, arrogant, superior attitude" of "not caring about if they make many fans angry and upset." In other words, you engage in an ad hominem attack and accuse them of arrogance and gross unprofessionalism.

The authors and editors have made it clear numerous times that they do care, but that they are also aware that any decision they make will anger some and delight others, often in equal amounts. Therefore, they cannot base their decisions on what "the fans" want, since there is no consensus. This has been explained to you numerous times.

If anyone has treated you in a disrespectful manner since this debate started, it is because you have continued to be disrespectful to the authors and editors by choosing to interpret their creative decision as a deliberate "Fuck you" to the audience even after they've explained that it was no such thing. Because why should they treat a fan with respect if he refuses to treat them with respect, and instead attributes their creative decisions to imaginary malice?

Oh come on! They kill off a main character, in this case the main character of the series for no acceptable reason and they seem to believe that everyone should applaud it and find it creative.

They never said that everyone should applaud it and find it creative. The authors and editors have said, time and again, that they made a creative decision knowing that it would anger some fans and delight others. You are literally putting words in their mouths now.

I don't find their decision "creative", only destructive and meaningless.

Which is certainly your right. (Though I will say that I used the term "creative" in the sense of, "referring to the creation of a story," not in the sense of, "being consistent with a philosophy of creating life.")

And yes, I'm p***ed off. Once again my interest for Star Trek have suffered a heavy blow from "people in charge".

You even have a right to be angry at the decision itself. I for one am angry at the decision to

Spoiler: Star Trek Countdown

bring Data back to life in "Star Trek: Countdown." This does not mean that I am angry at the writers or at JJ Abrams, or that I think that they have unsavory motives. It just means that I strongly disagree with their creative decision.

What you do not have the right to do is accuse the authors of making the decision out of malice. To do so is fundamentally dishonest and immature. And if it provokes dismissive or hostile reactions from others, then you shouldn't be surprised. Why should someone not become hostile towards someone who is, quite literally, making stuff up about other people?

 

[Lynx]

^^
Well, I have the opposite opinion about the things mentioned in the spoiler.

Anyway, I'm through with the "relaunch" books. I won't read a single one published after "Before Dishonor" even if someone did pay me to do that.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

And yes, I'm p***ed off by the fact that those in charge doesn't care about if they make many fans angry and upset. It's the same s****y, arrogant, superior attitude which those in charge of the TV series did show up when they destroyed the character Kes in "Fury" and gave the J/C:ers the finger with the Seven-Chakotay thing in "Endgame". I useed to think that those responsible for the books had a better understanding for the fans and cared more for the characters than berman's gang but obviously I was wrong.

See, Lynx, this is what I and others find objectionable about what you've been saying. Not the fact that you disagree with the decision to kill Janeway, but the fact that you attribute that decision and other creative decisions to a "shitty, arrogant, superior attitude" of "not caring about if they make many fans angry and upset." In other words, you engage in an ad hominem attack and accuse them of arrogance and gross unprofessionalism.

The authors and editors have made it clear numerous times that they do care, but that they are also aware that any decision they make will anger some and delight others, often in equal amounts. Therefore, they cannot base their decisions on what "the fans" want, since there is no consensus. This has been explained to you numerous times.

If anyone has treated you in a disrespectful manner since this debate started, it is because you have continued to be disrespectful to the authors and editors by choosing to interpret their creative decision as a deliberate "Fuck you" to the audience even after they've explained that it was no such thing. Because why should they treat a fan with respect if he refuses to treat them with respect, and instead attributes their creative decisions to imaginary malice?

Oh come on! They kill off a main character, in this case the main character of the series for no acceptable reason and they seem to believe that everyone should applaud it and find it creative.

I don't find their decision "creative", only destructive and meaningless.

And yes, I'm p***ed off. Once again my interest for Star Trek have suffered a heavy blow from "people in charge".

That still doesn't give you the right to insult them and then get offened when someone responds to you in kind, because and quote "the pot can't callthe kettel black".

 

[Sci]

^^
Well, I have the opposite opinion about the things mentioned in the spoiler.

Fair enough.

Anyway, I'm through with the "relaunch" books. I won't read a single one published after "Before Dishonor" even if someone did pay me to do that.

Well, I'm sorry to hear that. I think you're denying yourself some excellent works of art. Having said that, you should probably apologize to the authors and editors for attributing malicious intent to them.

 

[Marie1]

Those are brilliant (I particularly like the first one)! What's the code for it, if you don't mind my asking?

Here are the URLs, feel free to use them from there, but you can CTRL click and save them and use them else where should you so desire...

http://www.geocities.com/sp_ons/trekbbs-games/emoticons/spittake.gif

http://www.geocities.com/sp_ons/trekbbs-games/emoticons/party_47.gif


Just never do this...

And we could call the series STAR TREK: RESET BUTTON

LOL!!!!

Anyway, I'm through with the "relaunch" books. I won't read a single one published after "Before Dishonor" even if someone did pay me to do that.

Well, I hope that some day you won't be so mad (I know it sucks when a character you like dies, no matter how) and that you'll get curious again. The DS9PF is great!

 

[DimesDan]

^^
Anyway, I'm through with the "relaunch" books. I won't read a single one published after "Before Dishonor" even if someone did pay me to do that.

Have you finished?

Now could you kindly pick up your toys which you have just thrown out of your pram and grow the frak up!

Yes Janeway is dead.

Yes you don't like it.

Yes we know that.

BUT.

No she is not coming back.

No the writers at Pocket will not bring her back because some obsessive fan wants them too.

Live with it.

People Die.

They don't come back in reality and I prefer my fiction to be the same.

 

[Semah]

Oh come on! They kill off a main character, in this case the main character of the series for no acceptable reason and they seem to believe that everyone should applaud it and find it creative.

I'm going to regret this, but:

"No acceptable reason"

You see, there is an acceptable reason. She's a fictional character. As such, she went through what we like to call a 'character arc.' The arc ended with her sacrifice to save the planet Earth and the Federation. This sort of thing will occur in works of literature.

As to:

"everyone should applaud it"

No. There's no way that everyone should applaud this. No one's saying that through the entirety of this thread or in any other thread about this. If they are, they are being just as hyperbolic as you are.