Janeway Died? In Which Book?

[Trent Roman]

We know she's not coming back, because pretty much everyone involved with the books has said so. I know that doesn't neccissarily mean it is definitely true (they could be lieing, I guess) but at this point it's all we have to go by.

They're not lying. If there were indeed plans afoot to bring Janeway back, in whatever form, we would have gotten cryptic non-answers (I call them 'kradswers') to questions about Janeway's fate rather than "She dead. Dead, I tell you! DEAD!"

Come to think of it, I wonder if that might not have been a better approach. It would have left fans of the character with at least the crumb of hope that Before Dishonor's epilogue despondently flicked their way, even if it was something there were no current plans to follow-up on. Confirming that she was intended to be dead as the dodo kills any suspense or mystery about Janeway's ultimate fate. Then again, I hate false hope.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Ktrek]

I think we should bring back all the Trek characters that have ever died in a new series called Star Trek Hell or possibly Star Trek Heaven but Star Trek Hell would be more interesting! LOL

Kevin

EDIT: I juest realized that we could even make this a sequel to the Destiny series and call it Star Trek Hell: The Final Destiny LOL

 

[Therin of Andor]

My comment about "insulting story with more character destruction" wasn't aimed at KRAD and his writing as such (I know that he's a good writer and have come up with some good stories), more a question in general if the scenario in "Fury", "Nemesis" and "Before Dishonor" which should be repeated again.

But the threat you imply in your post is: "KRAD, whatever you do, don't ever kill off a character that I care about, or I'll lump you in with the writers of 'Fury', 'Nemesis' and 'Before Dishonor', and forever denounce you online."

I learned - from your own Kes website, you know - that Jennifer Lien had a hand in rewriting "Fury". If she didn't believe in that episode she had the choice of not participating.

Brent Spiner co-wrote "Nemesis". Surely he has a right to design his own character's demise?

 

[Semah]

That's balderdash. It's like you're ignoring all the previous pages of this thread.

Funny, that.

But at the moment, the ST novels can almost be written as if they are original fiction. Let the stories tell the stories that the situations demand to be told.

Amen.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

There can only be two reponses left to this thread. The first is a proverb. "You can't please all the people all the time, but you can please some of the people most of the time".

And the other is this:

I personally would go with the second one.

 

[Lynx]

My comment about "insulting story with more character destruction" wasn't aimed at KRAD and his writing as such (I know that he's a good writer and have come up with some good stories), more a question in general if the scenario in "Fury", "Nemesis" and "Before Dishonor" which should be repeated again.

But the threat you imply in your post is: "KRAD, whatever you do, don't ever kill off a character that I care about, or I'll lump you in with the writers of 'Fury', 'Nemesis' and 'Before Dishonor', and forever denounce you online."

I learned - from your own Kes website, you know - that Jennifer Lien had a hand in rewriting "Fury". If she didn't believe in that episode she had the choice of not participating.

Brent Spiner co-wrote "Nemesis". Surely he has a right to design his own character's demise?

Well, I do think I have the right to express my opinion about having to see my favorite characters being ruined or killed off.

As for Jennifer Lien, her contribution to "Fury" was that she persuaded those in charge not to kill off the character, something they had planned as a "nice surprise" to the Kes fans.

But I do think she did let her fans down by participating in that horrible episode.

As for Spiner, I don't understand why he did it. The only reason I can see is that he wanted to make it sure that he would never have to play Data again.

Still, there was and still is an option left for bringing Data back in an upcoming movie or book.

William Lesiner wrote:

You somehow seem to think you're special, that your wants are more important than anyone else's, and that other people should be acquiescing to your every whim and desire.

And the sooner you disabuse yourself of that notion, the better off you'll be in this world.

Not exactly, but if I think something is wrong, then I state my opinion about it and do all I can to change that. Acceptance and surrender have never been any options for me.

Commander Troi wrote:

I hope I get what I want (get Janeway back) otherwise it's my decision that I'm not interested in Trek Lit anymore and that I'll stop reading (don't say it, I fully understand that it doesn't have any effect on anything but my own well being). You can say now that it'll be my loss, but it won't. I hate to read stuff I don't like so I don't. I don't like reading about the effects that Janeway's death has on the others because her death was absolutely unnessecary and pointless (as always, imho) so I quit.

2nd quote...better no Voyager books than books I hate, ok, now shoot me down

I thnk that I'll agree here.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I do think I have the right to express my opinion about having to see my favorite characters being ruined or killed off.

So it's ok for someone to kill off characters, just so long as their not your favourites.

 

[Marie1]

As for "boycotts", I think that it's more about not buying or watching things which aren't of any interest anymore. I stopped watching Voyager after Kes was dumped, started to watch again after two years because of some strange affection for the series (which included that I borrowed videos to awatch the episodes I'd skipped before) just to have "Fury" thrown in my face. No surprise that I gave up there and then, was it?

(...)

But I see no reason to continue with that now because the direction which the ongoing Voyager story is taken is so far away from what I want. Why should I continue to buy books with a scenario I simply can't accept when there are people writing more acceptable fan-fiction stories on different sites. OK, not all of them are to my taste but I'm sure that something will turn up.

As for what we still got, I have only three seasons to watch and about 20-25 books to re-read. I guess I have to settle with that.

But- even though a character you liked died- you still came back because you liked the series over all! You can still do that. The story may go once in while in ways you'd prefer it not to, but thats probably going to be rare. How much Janeway could there possibly be in future novels? How much would we see her as an Admiral? Now think of what, if she comes back, she'll bring back! There's a lot more there. But you must like other characters from the series, I'm not sure I could read something if I could only stand one person. And so maybe at least read some excepts online once in a while to see if anything catches your eye, that way you won't be all behind and scrounging for texts when you realize something has happened that you want to read about. And if that affection for VOY survived the death of a favourite character before, you're guarenteed it'll happen again.

I think we should bring back all the Trek characters that have ever died in a new series called Star Trek Hell or possibly Star Trek Heaven but Star Trek Hell would be more interesting! LOL

Kevin

EDIT: I juest realized that we could even make this a sequel to the Destiny series and call it Star Trek Hell: The Final Destiny LOL

That would be hilarious!! Can we also go to Stov'a'kor? Not sure how thats spelled...

 

[Hoshi_Mayweather]

Alright, I've been following this conversation for awhile, and I guess I have something to say now...

I've been watching the latest episodes of BSG, and so far a couple of my favorite characters have been 'offed' (for those who haven't been caught up).

Yet, I'm still interested in how the series will end.

Star Trek, IMO, has been going downhill because it played 'too safe' and was formulaic.

The current Trek writers (or whoever is in charge) seems to be taking things a bit further than the series showing the audience that our Trek characters are not as invulnerable or immortal as we were led to believe...i.e. just because they are the main characters, they're guaranteed to survive.

As some other posters have brought out, bit characters that we've seen in the series have the possibility of becoming prominent characters...and prominent characters (either by karma or fate) can die.

If I'm not mistaken, even Babylon 5 was similar with their characters..

Basically, the Trek lit characters being expanded upon: A lot more continuity, characters depth (and death; as it is a part of life); characters grow, and grow older...learn from their mistakes, etc.

If we were to read every novel (or have yet another onscreen Trek series) where everything is patched up within an hour, and our main characters are exactly the same at the beginning and ending of the show...things would get boring.

I'm beginning to ramble...

Sidenote: Trek Lit, IMO, shows us the 'Star Trek' universe is more than just the Enterprise and it's crew. For ex: As far as we know Captain Ezri and her ship, the Aventine may be the prominent ship for awhile...

'The Janeway Death' is something I think will affect the VOY crew and have them grow in ways the series didn't allow them to.

 

[William Leisner]

William Lesiner [sic] wrote:

You somehow seem to think you're special, that your wants are more important than anyone else's, and that other people should be acquiescing to your every whim and desire.

And the sooner you disabuse yourself of that notion, the better off you'll be in this world.

Not exactly, but if I think something is wrong, then I state my opinion about it and do all I can to change that.

And at what point do you believe us when we tell you than this incessant bleating is not changing anything?

 

[CommanderTroi]

Commander Troi wrote:

I hope I get what I want (get Janeway back) otherwise it's my decision that I'm not interested in Trek Lit anymore and that I'll stop reading (don't say it, I fully understand that it doesn't have any effect on anything but my own well being). You can say now that it'll be my loss, but it won't. I hate to read stuff I don't like so I don't. I don't like reading about the effects that Janeway's death has on the others because her death was absolutely unnessecary and pointless (as always, imho) so I quit.

2nd quote...better no Voyager books than books I hate, ok, now shoot me down

I thnk that I'll agree here.

Oh please don't...the way you make Janeway fans appear is quite...unpleasant. Don't mean to insult you, but you seem to be contradicting yourself half the time which makes your points rather implausible. If 'the Janeway fans' (I'm actually no real hardcore fan of Janeway, I'm just against killing off characters from the show in general and since Janeway was the latest I spoke up) all argument like you do sometimes...how does this poor woman deserve such a fanbase? Being against her death is totally understandable and valid from my point of view, but criticizing a work of art should be done in a polite and respectful way.
And I don't think that 'the fans' can get an ear from Pocket if they behave like Hooligans after a football match.
That said Lynx, I understand that you are upset, I am too. But I also understand that the editors do what they feel is right for the novels, but that does not mean that I like it

 

[Lynx]

Commander Troi wrote:

I hope I get what I want (get Janeway back) otherwise it's my decision that I'm not interested in Trek Lit anymore and that I'll stop reading (don't say it, I fully understand that it doesn't have any effect on anything but my own well being). You can say now that it'll be my loss, but it won't. I hate to read stuff I don't like so I don't. I don't like reading about the effects that Janeway's death has on the others because her death was absolutely unnessecary and pointless (as always, imho) so I quit.

2nd quote...better no Voyager books than books I hate, ok, now shoot me down

I thnk that I'll agree here.

Oh please don't...the way you make Janeway fans appear is quite...unpleasant. Don't mean to insult you, but you seem to be contradicting yourself half the time which makes your points rather implausible. If 'the Janeway fans' (I'm actually no real hardcore fan of Janeway, I'm just against killing off characters from the show in general and since Janeway was the latest I spoke up) all argument like you do sometimes...how does this poor woman deserve such a fanbase? Being against her death is totally understandable and valid from my point of view, but criticizing a work of art should be done in a polite and respectful way.
And I don't think that 'the fans' can get an ear from Pocket if they behave like Hooligans after a football match.
That said Lynx, I understand that you are upset, I am too. But I also understand that the editors do what they feel is right for the novels, but that does not mean that I like it

Well, I'm not a hardcore Janeway fan either but I happen to like the character and I really do agree to your statement about not killing off characters from the series, something I've stated several times in this thread.

As for my criticizing, well I know that I can be a bit tough in my statements sometimes but that's the way I am, especially when I'm angry and upset.

Most of the time I try to be polite and respectful but sometimes it's very difficult, especially in this case when even polite and respectful comments seem to have no effect at all.

Marie1 wrote:

But- even though a character you liked died- you still came back because you liked the series over all! You can still do that. The story may go once in while in ways you'd prefer it not to, but thats probably going to be rare. How much Janeway could there possibly be in future novels? How much would we see her as an Admiral? Now think of what, if she comes back, she'll bring back! There's a lot more there. But you must like other characters from the series, I'm not sure I could read something if I could only stand one person. And so maybe at least read some excepts online once in a while to see if anything catches your eye, that way you won't be all behind and scrounging for texts when you realize something has happened that you want to read about. And if that affection for VOY survived the death of a favourite character before, you're guarenteed it'll happen again

Sorry, but this time it's over. First Kes, then Janeway. I simply can't accept that.

Right now I feel for totally abandoning Star Trek. Everything which was fun about it seems to have been lost. I'm not even looking forward to the new movie since I'm critical to the "recycling" of the TOS characters.

However, I still have some affection for Voyager and there's a chance that I can keep that affection alive-if I skip the "official" Star Trek with all the character destruction and stick with fanfiction instead. As for books, I can always re-read "The Black Shore" and some of the other classics for the umphteenth time, not to mention re-watching the episodes in seasons 1-3 of Voyager and all episodes of TNG on DVD.

 

[Thrawn]

Most of the time I try to be polite and respectful but sometimes it's very difficult, especially in this case when even polite and respectful comments seem to have no effect at all.

What effect would you expect them to have?

 

[Lynx]

Most of the time I try to be polite and respectful but sometimes it's very difficult, especially in this case when even polite and respectful comments seem to have no effect at all.

What effect would you expect them to have?

Well, first of all a constructive dialogue about it, not something like "We have decided that Janeway shall remain dead because of taking the series in another direction, for the best of the relaunch, creative masterpiece, what's good for Star Trek blah, blah, blah and we won't change that only because of a minority of fans complaining because it's our decision, we are in charge and the only thing for you is to accept it".

Then of course I hope that a constructive debate will lead to a resurrection of the character.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Right now I feel for totally abandoning Star Trek. Everything which was fun about it seems to have been lost.

You're hardly the first fan to feel that way, but maybe something in you has changed, not Star Trek. To me, ST is still the same positive exploration of space and humanity that it's always been.

When I ran a club of over 1000 ST fans, we found there were three types of departures for long-serving ST fans:

* fan politics

* those who quietly faded away because they'd found different and new interests

* and those who suddenly claimed that ST is stupid, has always been stupid, written by stupid writers, and only stupid people would stick with such a stupid show.

 

[Thrawn]

Most of the time I try to be polite and respectful but sometimes it's very difficult, especially in this case when even polite and respectful comments seem to have no effect at all.

What effect would you expect them to have?

Well, first of all a constructive dialogue about it, not something like "We have decided that Janeway shall remain dead because of taking the series in another direction, for the best of the relaunch, creative masterpiece, what's good for Star Trek blah, blah, blah and we won't change that only because of a minority of fans complaining because it's our decision, we are in charge and the only thing for you is to accept it".

Well then here's your problem - all this is factually true. We can have all manner of constructive dialogue about the reasons behind it and the reactions to it, but when it does come down to it, yes: they DID decide to take it in another direction for the best of the relaunch, they WON'T change that because of a small group of fans that's statistically insignificant, and they ARE in charge.

You don't have to accept it clearly - it's not like we've banned you from the forum or anything! And, if nothing else, no one is forcing you to purchase anything you don't want to read. But everything else you posted is a fact, it's not something you can argue.

Then of course I hope that a constructive debate will lead to a resurrection of the character.

Again: lost cause. If that's what you're going for, best give up now.

If you're trying to understand alternate points of view: great! If you're trying to make sure your voice is heard: the volume of posts in this thread means that has definitely happened. If you're trying to understand what led to the decision you hate: there's lots of that info here too.

But if your goal is to change it, you should seriously stop. It's not going to happen. And even if it does, it won't be because of anything anyone says on a messageboard. This is a fact, it cannot be argued. (Though I have this strange feeling you're about to try again...)

 

[William Leisner]

Well, I'm not a hardcore Janeway fan either

We need a spit-take smilie on this board.

 

[Semah]

Well, I'm not a hardcore Janeway fan either

We need a spit-take smilie on this board.

QFT. Lynx, you've gone on and on ad nauseum about how her death has ruined your enjoyment of the series. If you don't consider this hardcore, then I am confused.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Wow, I'm getting dizzy with all of the circles tis thread is going in.

 

[Marie1]

Does that mean this? (I did a google search... :/ )

or

Maybe it shouldn't be laughing...

It seems like this way, Janeway has more potential to explore, and tell stories if she returns, then for material to occur while she's an admiral sitting at a desk...