Janeway Died? In Which Book?

[William Leisner]

So where is this quick shutdown you're griping about?

Janeway fan, first time visitor to TrekLit: "I love Janeway!"

Us: "Shut up! We're glad she's dead."

Who is this "us" you're quoting here?

And what is your point? If I say "Shut up, Ian," and you continue talking, you have not been shut down. Nor have the Janeway fans, despite their cries of persecution, as again evidenced by the 600+ posts in this goddamned thread.

 

[Sci]

I have been here often enough to know that anyone who comes into this forum and expresses anger and/or displeasure over Janeway's death is quickly shutdown.

Shut down? This thread on that very subject is on page 30.........................

Hush. We wouldn't want to interfere with their attempts to portray themselves as victims.

 

[Jaron]

You know who was a prominent fan of Kathryn Janeway?

Kathryn Janeway.

And now she's dead. Coincidence? I think not.

 

[Therin of Andor]

And what is your point? If I say "Shut up, Ian," and you continue talking, you have not been shut down .

That was my point.

I don't believe Janeway conversation gets shut down, but kimc believes otherwise.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

You know who was a prominent fan of Kathryn Janeway?

Kathryn Janeway.

And now she's dead. Coincidence? I think not.

Big Brother is watching you or at least in the case Pocket Books, but same difference.

 

[AuntKate]

And what is your point? If I say "Shut up, Ian," and you continue talking, you have not been shut down .

That was my point.

I don't believe Janeway conversation gets shut down, but kimc believes otherwise.

And so, through clever parsing, the gang has once again dodged the hostility bullet.

I assume that kimc wasn't talking about the conversation being "shut down" as much as the poster being "shut down." One way they are "shut down" is through this kind of word play. Although I'm guessing here, I think that kimc meant that their opinions aren't taken seriously--as the response to her comment illustrates.

 

[Thrawn]

And what is your point? If I say "Shut up, Ian," and you continue talking, you have not been shut down .

That was my point.

I don't believe Janeway conversation gets shut down, but kimc believes otherwise.

And so, through clever parsing, the gang has once again dodged the hostility bullet.

I assume that kimc wasn't talking about the conversation being "shut down" as much as the poster being "shut down." One way they are "shut down" is through this kind of word play. Although I'm guessing here, I think that kimc meant that their opinions aren't taken seriously--as the response to her comment illustrates.

Find me one post where someone has said "I'm a big Janeway fan, and it's a bummer that she died" and someone has responded in a mean or negative manner. As far as I can tell, there isn't one.

What you'll find a lot of is people saying "THE PEOPLE IN CHARGE KILLED JANEWAY BECAUSE THEY HATE VOYAGER FANS AND IT WILL KILL THE BOOK SERIES AND DEPRIVE THEM OF PROFITS BECAUSE THE FANS ARE ANGRY!" And that, yes, we DO tend to respond to in a hostile way. Because it's offensive and demonstrably false (or, at the very least, cannot be determined until Full Circle comes out).

I don't have any problems with Janeway fans; in many ways, I quite like the character, and I've told Lynx several times that I found our conversations over the relative merits of Janeway's death quite interesting. I disagree, but I'm interested. My problem is with Janeway fans that assume that anyone, including the authors and editors, who disagrees with THEM either disrespects Voyager or The Fans (whatever that means).

 

[The Grim Ghost]

Nobody is shutting you down. But you have to realize you aren't going to get any writers or editors to read this thread and suddenly say "you're right, Janeway is coming back now." You aren't even going to be able to get the regular posters here that you're arguing this with to admit that she should return. You have every right to express your opinions, but you must realize that in the end you really don't have any way to get what you want.

As I've stated before, I am sympathetic to the Janeway fans views and feel that her death was lame, badly written and completely pointless. But at some point you people are going to have to deal with reality. She is gone for now, and probably at least for a good while. Possibly permanently, possibly not. You still have 7 seasons of Voyager and all of the books involving Janeway before her death to enjoy.

Maybe if there are as many hardcore Voyager fans out there as you think there are and they all boycott the new books then Pocket will get some kind of message...on the other hand Pocket or Paramount of whomever might decide that a Voyager book series isn't warranted because not enough people are buying it and that could result in much less exposure for the characters that are left. Your choice of course. The only future Voyager has left is in the books, just asking you to remember that.

 

[Semah]

That was my point.

I don't believe Janeway conversation gets shut down, but kimc believes otherwise.

And so, through clever parsing, the gang has once again dodged the hostility bullet.

I assume that kimc wasn't talking about the conversation being "shut down" as much as the poster being "shut down." One way they are "shut down" is through this kind of word play. Although I'm guessing here, I think that kimc meant that their opinions aren't taken seriously--as the response to her comment illustrates.

Find me one post where someone has said "I'm a big Janeway fan, and it's a bummer that she died" and someone has responded in a mean or negative manner. As far as I can tell, there isn't one.

What you'll find a lot of is people saying "THE PEOPLE IN CHARGE KILLED JANEWAY BECAUSE THEY HATE VOYAGER FANS AND IT WILL KILL THE BOOK SERIES AND DEPRIVE THEM OF PROFITS BECAUSE THE FANS ARE ANGRY!" And that, yes, we DO tend to respond to in a hostile way. Because it's offensive and demonstrably false (or, at the very least, cannot be determined until Full Circle comes out).

I don't have any problems with Janeway fans; in many ways, I quite like the character, and I've told Lynx several times that I found our conversations over the relative merits of Janeway's death quite interesting. I disagree, but I'm interested. My problem is with Janeway fans that assume that anyone, including the authors and editors, who disagrees with THEM either disrespects Voyager or The Fans (whatever that means).

Ya see, this is why I almost don't have to post here. This guy just says what I was going to say anyway.

 

[Therin of Andor]

One way they are "shut down" is through this kind of word play. Although I'm guessing here, I think that kimc meant that their opinions aren't taken seriously--as the response to her comment illustrates.

Ah, so we must stop all clever word play on this board? It's a Lit board; one would think that we are allowed to make word play here, of all places.

I fully understand that Janeway fans might be upset that their favourite character died. My favourite character, Data, died canonically in "Nemesis". But I still permit myself to enjoy post-"Nemesis" ST tie-ins. My favourite Andorian was turned into a jewel thief in "Enterprise", but I still permitted myself to anticipate the ENT Relaunch. In "Ex Machina", Christopher L Bennett killed off a character I used as a main player in fanfic, but "Ex Machina" is still a favourite ST novel.

I think it's unfortunate that some VOY fans don't seem to be able to so the same.

 

[CommanderTroi]

...You have every right to express your opinions, but you must realize that in the end you really don't have any way to get what you want.

...on the other hand Pocket or Paramount of whomever might decide that a Voyager book series isn't warranted because not enough people are buying it and that could result in much less exposure for the characters that are left. Your choice of course. The only future Voyager has left is in the books, just asking you to remember that.

First quote...how will you know that she's not coming back? Have you read the book? We'll see who gets what he wants in a few weeks...I hope I get what I want (get Janeway back) otherwise it's my decision that I'm not interested in Trek Lit anymore and that I'll stop reading (don't say it, I fully understand that it doesn't have any effect on anything but my own well being). You can say now that it'll be my loss, but it won't. I hate to read stuff I don't like so I don't. I don't like reading about the effects that Janeway's death has on the others because her death was absolutely unnessecary and pointless (as always, imho) so I quit.

2nd quote...better no Voyager books than books I hate, ok, now shoot me down

 

[JD]

We know she's not coming back, because pretty much everyone involved with the books has said so. I know that doesn't neccissarily mean it is definitely true (they could be lieing, I guess) but at this point it's all we have to go by.

 

[kimc]

And what is your point? If I say "Shut up, Ian," and you continue talking, you have not been shut down .

That was my point.

I don't believe Janeway conversation gets shut down, but kimc believes otherwise.

And so, through clever parsing, the gang has once again dodged the hostility bullet.

I assume that kimc wasn't talking about the conversation being "shut down" as much as the poster being "shut down." One way they are "shut down" is through this kind of word play. Although I'm guessing here, I think that kimc meant that their opinions aren't taken seriously--as the response to her comment illustrates.

Exactly. Congratulations folks - you've shut me down! I'm done with this thread. I think I'd rather go do something less painful like bang my head against the wall for an hour.

 

[Lynx]

I've personally assumed you were female by the way you have conducted yourself because of the wording and the way you have phrased words as well.

Huh?

The way you phrased what you were saying and in the manner in which it affected you didn't exactly come across in a particularly masculine manner which in it self isn't a bad thing what so ever, it just reminded me of a few people I know who are in fact women. It just proves you shouldn't make assumptions as assumptions are bad.

Hmmm......so much for trying to write diplomatic and polite replies.

Maybe I should be more direct in my approach and write what I really feel about the whole thing, such as " !

Hmmm...maybe not such a good idea after all.

 

[ClayinCA]

What's so special about "A Singular Destiny"? Another insulting story with more character destruction?

Nope, another masterpiece from KRAD (and I haven't even read it yet). Seriously, nothing Keith has ever written contains anything even remotely identifiable as character destruction, nor has his writing ever been "insulting" (unlike your insinuation above). I'd think you owe him an apology for that.

I fully understand that Janeway fans might be upset that their favourite character died. My favourite character, Data, died canonically in "Nemesis". But I still permit myself to enjoy post-"Nemesis" ST tie-ins. My favourite Andorian was turned into a jewel thief in "Enterprise", but I still permitted myself to anticipate the ENT Relaunch. In "Ex Machina, Christopher L Bennett killed off a character I used as a main player in fanfic, but "Ex Machina" is still a favourite ST novel.

Wow, Therin, you're having really bad luck with your favourite characters! I do really appreciate your post, though - it's an excellent point that it's still possible to enjoy the books even if some events in them are things you don't necessarily like.

Hmmm......so much for trying to write diplomatic and polite replies.

Maybe I should be more direct in my approach and write what I really feel about the whole thing, such as " !

Hmmm...maybe not such a good idea after all.

Maybe not - try not insulting writers of books you haven't read, or have no intention to read. That'll get you a lot more positive reception.

 

[Lynx]

Nobody is shutting you down. But you have to realize you aren't going to get any writers or editors to read this thread and suddenly say "you're right, Janeway is coming back now." You aren't even going to be able to get the regular posters here that you're arguing this with to admit that she should return. You have every right to express your opinions, but you must realize that in the end you really don't have any way to get what you want.

As I've stated before, I am sympathetic to the Janeway fans views and feel that her death was lame, badly written and completely pointless. But at some point you people are going to have to deal with reality. She is gone for now, and probably at least for a good while. Possibly permanently, possibly not. You still have 7 seasons of Voyager and all of the books involving Janeway before her death to enjoy.

Maybe if there are as many hardcore Voyager fans out there as you think there are and they all boycott the new books then Pocket will get some kind of message...on the other hand Pocket or Paramount of whomever might decide that a Voyager book series isn't warranted because not enough people are buying it and that could result in much less exposure for the characters that are left. Your choice of course. The only future Voyager has left is in the books, just asking you to remember that.

Well, the fans and their feelings seem to have very low priority when it comes to the writers, producers, authors and those in charge of the TV series and the books as well.

And still we are the ones who keep the machinery rolling by watching the episodes and buying the DVD's, the books and a lot of other merchandise.

As for "boycotts", I think that it's more about not buying or watching things which aren't of any interest anymore. I stopped watching Voyager after Kes was dumped, started to watch again after two years because of some strange affection for the series (which included that I borrowed videos to awatch the episodes I'd skipped before) just to have "Fury" thrown in my face. No surprise that I gave up there and then, was it?

Now the same thing is happening in the books, definitely squashing the hopes I had for the relaunch. OK, I wasn't too happy with the scenario in the books but there was at least hope for something better than the TV series and even if I haven't bought all the relaunch books, I did at least buy some of them as some sort of support for it, with a hope that it would continue to be published so that we could have an ongoing Voyager story. I have also expressed my hope for a succesful Voyager relaunch on different forums

But I see no reason to continue with that now because the direction which the ongoing Voyager story is taken is so far away from what I want. Why should I continue to buy books with a scenario I simply can't accept when there are people writing more acceptable fan-fiction stories on different sites. OK, not all of them are to my taste but I'm sure that something will turn up.

If or when many Voyager fans should turn their backs to the books, then it must be something wrong with them and then we know who to blame if the book series is cancelled. Not the fans but those who created scenarios which the Voyager fans can't accept. OK, it's theories from me here but as I've stated before, I do have a feeling that many fans dislikes that Janeway is killed off.

As for what we still got, I have only three seasons to watch and about 20-25 books to re-read. I guess I have to settle with that.

kimc wrote:

Exactly. Congratulations folks - you've shut me down! I'm done with this thread. I think I'd rather go do something less painful like bang my head against the wall for an hour.

Oh, come on! We can't abandon the ship when the captain is in danger!

 

[Lynx]

What's so special about "A Singular Destiny"? Another insulting story with more character destruction?

Nope, another masterpiece from KRAD (and I haven't even read it yet). Seriously, nothing Keith has ever written contains anything even remotely identifiable as character destruction, nor has his writing ever been "insulting" (unlike your insinuation above). I'd think you owe him an apology for that.

I fully understand that Janeway fans might be upset that their favourite character died. My favourite character, Data, died canonically in "Nemesis". But I still permit myself to enjoy post-"Nemesis" ST tie-ins. My favourite Andorian was turned into a jewel thief in "Enterprise", but I still permitted myself to anticipate the ENT Relaunch. In "Ex Machina, Christopher L Bennett killed off a character I used as a main player in fanfic, but "Ex Machina" is still a favourite ST novel.

Wow, Therin, you're having really bad luck with your favourite characters! I do really appreciate your post, though - it's an excellent point that it's still possible to enjoy the books even if some events in them are things you don't necessarily like.

Hmmm......so much for trying to write diplomatic and polite replies.

Maybe I should be more direct in my approach and write what I really feel about the whole thing, such as " !

Hmmm...maybe not such a good idea after all.

Maybe not - try not insulting writers of books you haven't read, or have no intention to read. That'll get you a lot more positive reception.

My comment about "insulting story with more character destruction" wasn't aimed at KRAD and his writing as such (I know that he's a good writer and have come up with some good stories), more a question in general if the scenario in "Fury", "Nemesis" and "Before Dishonor" which should be repeated again. Yes, I did find "Fury" insulting.

Just for your information, I've actually credited Berman, Braga and those in charge of the TV seires for the good stories and good characters they have come up with but I have no doubts about criticizing them for what I think they did handle wrong. The same for the books and those who write them.

 

[William Leisner]

Well, the fans and their feelings seem to have very low priority when it comes to the writers, producers, authors and those in charge of the TV series and the books as well.

Welcome to the real world.

Nobody asked me if Pushing Daisies should be cancelled, or cared that I wanted to see a Firefly novel line. I want the British version of Life on Mars on R1 DVD, but the BBC has yet to comply. I've been hoping for a Quantum Leap revival for about 15 years, and it hasn't happened yet. And you know what? That's life -- you deal with it.

You somehow seem to think you're special, that your wants are more important than anyone else's, and that other people should be acquiescing to your every whim and desire.

And the sooner you disabuse yourself of that notion, the better off you'll be in this world.

 

[Ktrek]

There can only be two reponses left to this thread. The first is a proverb. "You can't please all the people all the time, but you can please some of the people most of the time".

And the other is this:

 

[Therin of Andor]

Well, the fans and their feelings seem to have very low priority when it comes to the writers, producers, authors and those in charge of the TV series and the books as well.

That's balderdash. It's like you're ignoring all the previous pages of this thread.

Writers of ST are very often fans of ST themselves. It would be a pretty rotten job to write ST if you didn't like ST, or SF. Writers are employed to tell exciting, thought-provoking stories that will sell lots of copies. Sometimes characters will die, just as sometimes people die in real life. Since ST fans can all have their favourite characters, the only way to prevent anyone from ever losing a favourite character is for ST episodes, movies, comics and short stories to never allow anyone to be killed off.

Even a lowly redshirt ensign in some episode may be someone's favourite character. Over on the board for TOS there are whole threads dedicated to one-off ST characters, such as Dr Helen Noel. Lycia Naff's character in TNG made a brief canonical appearance spilling hot chocolate on Picard, and became an ongoing featured character in SCE/CoE.

If novelists sat up at night worrying about whether their actions would upset readers, how could they possibly tell a story in the way that story needs to unfold? In a TV show, with actors on contracts, the writers must keep to a status quo, endangering but not killing the cast - unless there is a sudden need to release an actor. With tie-ins of a current show, a status quo must also be kept. But at the moment, the ST novels can almost be written as if they are original fiction. Let the stories tell the stories that the situations demand to be told.