Janeway Died? In Which Book?

[Trent Roman]

See, this is why resurrecting dead characters is a bad thing. It's been done so many times that fans these days expect any character death to be merely a setup for their resurrection, so instead of really feeling the death as a loss, they approach it merely as a temporary setback. And the emotional impact of death as a story element in serial fiction is undermined as a result.

Well, the epilogue, whatever the behind-the-scenes reasons for its inclusion, certainly feeds those expectations. But, really, you can't undermine an emotional impact that doesn't exist in the first place. Episodes like "Lower Decks" and Wildfire create genuine emotion that would be undermined by those characters returning from the dead. Hell, I never even imagined the character who died in Wildfire would ever be resurrected because said character got such a beautiful send-off that there would be nowhere to go but down with that character. It's a much different situation when you have poorly-written, smarmy fecal matter like "These Are The Voyages" or Before Dishonour that generate nothing but disgust at the cheap and vulgar attempt at appearing consequential. When there's nothing on the line, I have no problem reversing a mistake, even if only to give the character a proper send-off.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Thrawn]

I always get a perverse joy out of major characters dying completely unexpected, totally pointless deaths. Feels more valid to me. And there's as much a statement there about the frailty and randomness of life, I think, as there is in any "proper sendoff" of a valued character. Maybe I'm just too devoted to the cult of Joss Whedon, who loves doing that (over and over and over...) but I don't think it's "cheap and vulgar".

But regardless, perhaps Full Circle will in some way provide the sendoff you desire; if not how she died, then how she lived just before.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Janeway is the most popular character in Voyager, and yet Pocket Books' editors/writers decide they don't need her. It boggles the imagination.

Wait... first you said killing Janeway displayed a lack of imagination... now you're implying that it's too much imagination? I confoozled now...

Can you imagine Sue Grafton killing off Kinsey Millhone? Or Tom Clancy killing off Jack Ryan?

Yep. With ease. (Of course, you're comparing apples and trout here, but we'll let that pass.)

Voyager without Janeway? Forget about it. IMHO

Y'know... once you've posted the same stubborn and unyielding opinion fifty times, it's time to drop the "H". There ain't nothing humble in constantly droning, "I'm right I'm right I'm right I'm right"...

In that case you might want to avoid the Trek IX forum.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Agatha Christie detested Hercule Poirot, but she had enough sense not to kill him off.

I thought she did. The final Poirot novel was the controversial "Curtain: Poirot's Last Case".

Or was it Miss Marple she killed off?

 

[Therin of Andor]

Mulgrew fans have had the opportunity to see her perform in many plays, personal appearances, and guest spots since Voyager went off the air.

Lucky you in America.

 

[Sci]

Soooo.... To sum up...

The editors at Pocket Books felt that killing Janeway off made for a richer, more dramatic, better story and setup for future stories.

Some Janeway fans diagree, and refuse to acknowledge the validity of alternate opinions.

Meanwhile, there's nothing keeping Pocket from periodically doing VOY novels set during Voyager's Delta Quadrant odyssey, just like there's nothing stopping them from doing TOS novels set during the Five-Year Mission.

Am I missing anything?

 

[LightningStorm]

In that case you might want to avoid the Trek IX forum.

Yeah, those Insurrection fans are militant.

 

[Dayton Ward]

^ Bring Back Ru'afo!

 

[Christopher]

People seem to get dyslexic about Roman numerals pretty easily. There's a thread in the Movies forum titled, "Why Did the Bridge in VI look different to the Bridge in VI?"

 

[Trent Roman]

Some Janeway fans diagree, and refuse to acknowledge the validity of alternate opinions. (...) Am I missing anything?

If I'm being counted amongst the aformentioned group (and kudos on a fair and disinterested assesment, by the way), then I would like to make a correction: I'm not a Janeway fan. I like her well enough, but there are several characters from that show who I preferred. I just don't like seeing any character get the shoddy treatment Janeway has. Heck, Tucker was easily the character from ENT I found the most irritating, but I was still disgusted by the ant excretion that was "TATV" and perfectly happy with the idea of reversing his apparent death (the execution... not so much).

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Sci]

Some Janeway fans diagree, and refuse to acknowledge the validity of alternate opinions. (...) Am I missing anything?

If I'm being counted amongst the aformentioned group

You're not.

 

[KRAD]

A fantastic article, by the way. It's nice to explode some of those cliches that people keep trying to hang on Kirk.

Thanks so much! That was a rant that had burbling for years, and it was nice of Paul to give me an outlet for it. (And an outlet I got paid for! Bonus! )

is it online any where?

Nope. You have to go out and buy the magazine (it's in issue #14, the Romulan issue).

Kirk may be dead, but by my count, there have been about 30 TOS novels published since 2001 (not counting the Shatnerverse novels), so his "grieving fans" haven't really had to do without him, have they?

And, please, don't assume that the fan of a character is a fan of the actor. Mulgrew fans have had the opportunity to see her perform in many plays, personal appearances, and guest spots since Voyager went off the air. In contrast, Janeway fans have had very little chance to enjoy reading about their favorite captain--seven novels since 2001, if you include Book 3 of String Theory in which she was mostly in a coma.

Your count's off on several levels. If you're talking Voyager novels, there've been ten since 2001: in addition to the four post-finale novels and String Theory (which I assume are your seven) there's also The Nanotech War (2002), The Mirror-Scaled Serpent in Mirror Universe: Obsidian Alliances (2007), and Places of Exile in Myriad Universes: Infinity's Prism (2008). Plus you're arbitrarily discounting the Distant Shores anthology, where Janeway is the only character who appears in all twelve stories.

If you're just talking about books with Janeway in them, it's even more off, since Admiral Janeway has been a supporting character in the pre- and post-Nemesis TNG fiction, and also appeared elsewhere.

Here's the total number of Janeway appearances since 2001:

VOY: The Nanotech War by Steven Piziks
VOY: Homecoming by Christie Golden
VOY: The Farther Shore by Christie Golden
TNG: A Time to Love by Robert Greenberger
TNG: A Time to Hate by Robert Greenberger
TNG: A Time to Kill by David Mack
TNG: A Time to Heal by David Mack
TNG: A Time for War, a Time for Peace by Keith R.A. DeCandido
VOY: Spirit Walk: Old Wounds by Christie Golden
VOY: Spirit Walk: Enemy of My Enemy by Christie Golden
VOY: Distant Shores by various
VOY: String Theory: Cohesion by Jeffrey Lang
VOY: String Theory: Fusion by Kirsten Beyer
VOY: String Theory: Evolution by Heather Jarman
Articles of the Federation by Keith R.A. DeCandido
TNG: Death in Winter by Michael Jan Friedman
The Mirror-Scaled Serpent by Keith R.A. DeCandido (in Mirror Universe: Obsidian Alliances)
TNG: Resistance by J.M. Dillard
TNG: Q & A by Keith R.A. DeCandido
TNG: Before Dishonor by Keith R.A. DeCandido
Places of Exile by Christopher L. Bennett (in Myriad Universes: Infinity's Prism)

Janeway is the most popular character in Voyager, and yet Pocket Books' editors/writers decide they don't need her.

She's been in 22 books published since the show went off the air (23 if you count the one that was published in 2001, but after "Endgame" aired), which is contrary to the notion that anybody "decide[d] they don't need her." In fact, I can speak specifically for those of us who included her in the final five A Time to... books -- we could've used any ol' admiral, but we thought the stories worked better with Janeway there.

Also, out of curiosity, what's your evidence for the assertion that Janeway's the most popular character in Voyager? There's a case to be made for Seven of Nine and the EMH, quite frankly....

It boggles the imagination. Agatha Christie detested Hercule Poirot, but she had enough sense not to kill him off.

I thought she did. The final Poirot novel was the controversial "Curtain: Poirot's Last Case".

Yeah she did, in Curtain. One of her best books, too. (In part because it was the first time Hastings was a character instead of a narrator.)

 

[The Grim Ghost]

See, this is why resurrecting dead characters is a bad thing. It's been done so many times that fans these days expect any character death to be merely a setup for their resurrection, so instead of really feeling the death as a loss, they approach it merely as a temporary setback. And the emotional impact of death as a story element in serial fiction is undermined as a result.

Well, the epilogue, whatever the behind-the-scenes reasons for its inclusion, certainly feeds those expectations. But, really, you can't undermine an emotional impact that doesn't exist in the first place. Episodes like "Lower Decks" and Wildfire create genuine emotion that would be undermined by those characters returning from the dead. Hell, I never even imagined the character who died in Wildfire would ever be resurrected because said character got such a beautiful send-off that there would be nowhere to go but down with that character. It's a much different situation when you have poorly-written, smarmy fecal matter like "These Are The Voyages" or Before Dishonour that generate nothing but disgust at the cheap and vulgar attempt at appearing consequential. When there's nothing on the line, I have no problem reversing a mistake, even if only to give the character a proper send-off.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

You forgot Data's death in Nemesis. I'm against bringing back dead characters for the most part too. But horribly written movies/shows/books that involve beloved characters dying in badly written and illogical ways are a tough pill to swallow.

 

[Newspaper Taxi]

I think the reason why Janeway's death was left slightly ambiguous was more for business/corporate reasons. What happens if Star Trek XI tanks and for some reason the powers that may or may not be decide they want Janeway to be a main/supporting character in Trek XII? It's going to be a little awkward to deal with the events of Trek XII in the novel universe when Janeway has actively been dead for four or five years. This way, at least, if their arms are twisted into being forced to use Janeway again they'll have a semi-foreshadowed way to deal with it.

Chakotay: "Janeway? I thought you had been dead for the last four or five years."

Janeway: "What? No, I was here the whole time..."

 

[TGTheodore]

Janeway is the most popular character in Voyager, and yet Pocket Books' editors/writers decide they don't need her.

Wow. I sure missed THAT Gallup Poll ...

--Ted

 

[JD]

Thanks so much! That was a rant that had burbling for years, and it was nice of Paul to give me an outlet for it. (And an outlet I got paid for! Bonus! )

is it online any where?

Nope. You have to go out and buy the magazine (it's in issue #14, the Romulan issue).


Your count's off on several levels. If you're talking Voyager novels, there've been ten since 2001: in addition to the four post-finale novels and String Theory (which I assume are your seven) there's also The Nanotech War (2002), The Mirror-Scaled Serpent in Mirror Universe: Obsidian Alliances (2007), and Places of Exile in Myriad Universes: Infinity's Prism (2008). Plus you're arbitrarily discounting the Distant Shores anthology, where Janeway is the only character who appears in all twelve stories.

If you're just talking about books with Janeway in them, it's even more off, since Admiral Janeway has been a supporting character in the pre- and post-Nemesis TNG fiction, and also appeared elsewhere.

Here's the total number of Janeway appearances since 2001:

VOY: The Nanotech War by Steven Piziks
VOY: Homecoming by Christie Golden
VOY: The Farther Shore by Christie Golden
TNG: A Time to Love by Robert Greenberger
TNG: A Time to Hate by Robert Greenberger
TNG: A Time to Kill by David Mack
TNG: A Time to Heal by David Mack
TNG: A Time for War, a Time for Peace by Keith R.A. DeCandido
VOY: Spirit Walk: Old Wounds by Christie Golden
VOY: Spirit Walk: Enemy of My Enemy by Christie Golden
VOY: Distant Shores by various
VOY: String Theory: Cohesion by Jeffrey Lang
VOY: String Theory: Fusion by Kirsten Beyer
VOY: String Theory: Evolution by Heather Jarman
Articles of the Federation by Keith R.A. DeCandido
TNG: Death in Winter by Michael Jan Friedman
The Mirror-Scaled Serpent by Keith R.A. DeCandido (in Mirror Universe: Obsidian Alliances)
TNG: Resistance by J.M. Dillard
TNG: Q & A by Keith R.A. DeCandido
TNG: Before Dishonor by Keith R.A. DeCandido
Places of Exile by Christopher L. Bennett (in Myriad Universes: Infinity's Prism)


She's been in 22 books published since the show went off the air (23 if you count the one that was published in 2001, but after "Endgame" aired), which is contrary to the notion that anybody "decide[d] they don't need her." In fact, I can speak specifically for those of us who included her in the final five A Time to... books -- we could've used any ol' admiral, but we thought the stories worked better with Janeway there.

Also, out of curiosity, what's your evidence for the assertion that Janeway's the most popular character in Voyager? There's a case to be made for Seven of Nine and the EMH, quite frankly....

It boggles the imagination. Agatha Christie detested Hercule Poirot, but she had enough sense not to kill him off.

I thought she did. The final Poirot novel was the controversial "Curtain: Poirot's Last Case".

Yeah she did, in Curtain. One of her best books, too. (In part because it was the first time Hastings was a character instead of a narrator.)

Ahhh, a KRADList (tm) all is right in the world for a very brief time.

 

[KRAD]

Ahhh, a KRADList (tm) all is right in the world for a very brief time.

Glad to be of service.....

 

[USS Triumphant]

TNG: Before Dishonor by Keith R.A. DeCandido

Did anyone else catch this? Peter David is a nom de plume for KRAD!

 

[KRAD]

Well, Peter is my first coming. Or something.


(Six years ago, in a review of The Brave and the Bold, Mania.com referred to me as "like the second coming of Peter David." Peter and I have both been milking that ever since........................ )

 

[USS Triumphant]

Well, Peter is my first coming. Or something.

I've read the book, and I still had to go check Amazon to make sure I was right about the author before I posted that. I enjoy reading the works from both of you a lot, so I wasn't sure.

(Oh, btw: This is T'Pau of Vulgar, aka Chain Smoker, aka One-Up Man, from our old JLGEnie days, just so ya know. )