Janeway as mother

[HoneyBLilly]

Depression and/or crippling guilt = no soul?! This line of reasoning doesn't even track. I could actually relate a real-life story that's sort of similar to this, but it's pretty terrible. Suffice it to say, whoa.

Don't go into the psychiatric profession anytime soon.

I didn't see her as depressed. Depression couldn't be instantly countered by a bad guy showing up and trying to kill everyone, well chameleon pirates stealing their deuterium.

She was just on standby, disenaged because there was nothing worthwile to hold her attention in the space desert, even such mundane tasks as "looking after her crew" and "maintaining the facilities of her starship". It was beneath her. If Kathryn didn't get to be a hero, didn't get to fight an unconquerable foe (Didn't Don Quixotee shut down when reality insisted that those windmills most certainly were not giants.) then she might as well stay in her quarters and rock back and forth.

Except that she wasn't cured by the Malon showing up. The action didn't solve any of her problems. She snapped into action and everything, but still wanted to "atone" somehow by staying behind and ensuring Voyager's safe journey through the vortex. And the crippling guilt issues were obviously still simmering deep inside well after that episode, or else Admiral Janeway wouldn't have decided to drop-kick Time in the face in the finale. She wasn't on standby simply because she had nothing to do (Chakotay implies she was still doing work, but was hiding,) she was on standby because her guilt was catching up with her. "Coda" also mentioned that she'd had problems in the past with depression.

For most of the series, we see her handling downtime just fine (although it's clearly her preference to work a lot.)

At least she isn't an attention whore . . . Or affection whore.

The series could have been much much different if she were.

 

[Guy Gardener]

So froot, you're saying that she always thinking about her "mistake" from Caretaker?

If it's always there, "always", then Janeway's guilt about stranding her crew is not crippling. She works around and with her guilt every day of her life without stutter or pause.

I'm not concerned with how she handled her guilt over damning her crew, the quality of Night is focussing on how she dealt with boredom. A complete lack of external stimulus, and all that happens when Janeway has nothing to keep her company except Janeway is that without threat or strife to distract "guilt" it is then that the usually perfectly manageable guilt is suddenly the only voice in her head, not because it's important, or even loud, but because there's NOTHING else she cares about. Danger and threats act as a counterbalance which puts her guilt into perspective. Her tiny unrealistic and pathetic guilt born from second guessing an arguably "correct" decision seems now relatively huge when there's nothing to compare it too any more in or (especially) outside her mind.

In every other adventure she didn't think or remember that she mad a terrible mistake. The continuous overwhelming crippling guilt was put on the back burner to simmer till she had some spare time to indulge in feeling sorry for herself, Janeway just "reacted" to the alien of the week and continued on without worry she was needed to save the day. saving the day was far more important than anything else going on in the woman's life, whatever she was doing was far more important than anything else in her life unless she was doing nothing and that's when the hobgoblins of her mind came out to play.

(I'm thinking about Doctor House a lot as I type this.)

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Wait, am I missing something? When was Janeway ever pigeonholed into solely being a mother figure? She's shown doing the "mom" thing quite a bit of course, particularly with certain characters, but that wasn't the only facet to her character. Q gives her some guff about being a "mommy" in Q2, but he's not exactly known for his tact.

She was also shown as a tactician, a scientist, a diplomat, a lover, and a badass with a very big gun. You know, the same shit the other captains do. She wasn't sitting around knitting sweaters during space battles. What about "Macrocosm?" "Scorpion?" "Counterpoint?" "Year of Hell?" Her shindig with Jaffen in "Workforce?" Hell, in "Workforce," the others come to her aid, not the other way 'round. Or even "Night?" I'd say Chakotay was kind of mommying her there..

Here's my take: Janeway was very much a character of Mulgrew. We've said it before, Janeway "woos" her crew into respect and doing her bidding. The hand on the arm, the standing close, the looking in the eyes.. this is all natural stuff for Mulgrew from what I've seen. For a younger crew member, scared and alone, this may well be a comforting maternal gesture. Why is this wrong or less-than? Would people find it irritating if a younger crew member looked to Picard as the wise father figure in a time of crisis?

Janeway was a great character. She managed to be absolutely kick ass, sexual, maternal, a commanding leader. Maybe this is what people freak out about--she is more than just Tomb Raider female and more than just sex pot. Could it be that having someone maternal AND a sexual being is what some can't quite grasp?

 

[AuntKate]

Janeway was a real person, flawed, complicated, changeable. She was even able to laugh at herself, which is one of my criteria for 'mental health' these days. I enjoyed the character, and I enjoyed the interactions among Voyager's crew.

 

[LeadHead]

I'm gonna have to throw the penalty flag on that one. Archer did try to lead while being friends with his crew. That doesn't mean idiot.

In fight or flight, the first time they meet NEW aliens, the first thing Archer did was forward DIRECTIONS TO EARTH to prove that he was friendly and forthcoming to his "new friends" so that they could trust his good intentions.

Space battle.

They got lucky or the crew would have been meat on hooks and then the homeworld, also nothing but meat on hooks.

"Idiot" is an all to polite use of verbiage to describe the man's condition.

No, he didn't. At least not in Fight or Flight, I know in other episodes they exchanged info on homeworlds.

And besides which, Point missed: The original idiot comment had nothing to do with how he dealt with alien species, but how he commanded the crew.

 

[Guy Gardener]

from Fight or flight

ARCHER: Any comm. activity?
HOSHI: No, sir.
ARCHER: Run this through the translation matrix. My name is Jonathan Archer. I'm Captain of the Starship Enterprise. We're on a mission of peaceful exploration. Oh, we come from the planet Earth. We're sending you a pulsar grid that should help you locate our star system. Did you rotate the frequencies?
HOSHI: I'll try it again. No response, sir.

http://www.chakoteya.net/Enterprise/03.htm

Archer is an idiot for many reasons starting with his overt racist and bigoted treatment of T'Pol for "most" of the first season and then on and off to all sorts of other places.

 

[HoneyBLilly]

Most of the humans had overt racism towards Vulcans.

 

[LeadHead]

from Fight or flight

ARCHER: Any comm. activity?
HOSHI: No, sir.
ARCHER: Run this through the translation matrix. My name is Jonathan Archer. I'm Captain of the Starship Enterprise. We're on a mission of peaceful exploration. Oh, we come from the planet Earth. We're sending you a pulsar grid that should help you locate our star system. Did you rotate the frequencies?
HOSHI: I'll try it again. No response, sir.

http://www.chakoteya.net/Enterprise/03.htm

Archer is an idiot for many reasons starting with his overt racist and bigoted treatment of T'Pol for "most" of the first season and then on and off to all sorts of other places.

Huh, I missed that part. I stand corrected. And that might have been starfleets directive to him, wanting to encourage more aliens to come to Earth besides the Vulcans. After all, Earth has some of the best tourism in the galaxy!

Archer had a resentment of Vulcans, which is different from being a bigot. He didn't trust them to be truthful with him and didn't fully trust T'Pol at first.

There's a difference between bad judgement and idiot though. I still contend that he may not have gotten everything right, but had he actually been an idiot, the ship would have been destroyed before the end of the first episode.

 

[Guy Gardener]

History demanded that Archer die and the Enterprise exploded half way through season one. It was only the intervention of the Suliban who purposely rewrote the future turning continuity on it's ass working to a counteragenda of "Captain Daniels" the supposed representative of the Federations bright, noble and glorious future.

A living breathing Archer defied the redletter moments in history that fomented the upbringing of Kirk, Picard, Sisko and Janeway.

The wrong man founded the Federation wrong at the wrong point in time.

(I'm pretty sure Daniels was a villain.)

 

[AuntKate]

Guy, you never fail to entertain.

 

[Shatnertage]

How could he be a villain? He always brought Archer his eggs soft.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Soft eggs for a soft Captain.

Neelix's cooking steeled Jameway prepared for anything.

 

[AuntKate]

I didn't see her as depressed. Depression couldn't be instantly countered by a bad guy showing up and trying to kill everyone, well chameleon pirates stealing their deuterium.

She was just on standby, disenaged because there was nothing worthwile to hold her attention in the space desert, even such mundane tasks as "looking after her crew" and "maintaining the facilities of her starship". It was beneath her. If Kathryn didn't get to be a hero, didn't get to fight an unconquerable foe (Didn't Don Quixotee shut down when reality insisted that those windmills most certainly were not giants.) then she might as well stay in her quarters and rock back and forth.

This is an interesting take on Janeway's "retreat" to her quarters in "Night," and I think it might be pretty close to the truth. The inaction and lack of challenge gave her too much time to think, and so she just decided to take a little in house vacation. I think Chakotay must have known that or he would have taken more drastic steps to get treatment for her (assuming that in the 24th century we have solved the depression puzzle). He just wanted her to show herself and let the crew know she was fine--and she wasn't so inclined. She has been depressed before (after her dad dies, in "Mosaic"), so I'm thinking she'd know depression when she experiences it.

 

[jackie brown]

Had to create an account just to reply to this thread because I find it sexist and provocative.

You can’t compare captains. If you do you miss the entire point with the captains. It is like comparing a painting by Michelangelo with one by Van Gogh. They are expressions of different things. Additionally, there’s no right answer. No best captain, and we aren’t in a position to determine who the best is.

Kirk was, with today’s standards a “Bro”. He’s a douche bag. If that show aired today it would fail, people would find it hard to relate to him. He was rough, bantered, was disobedient, aggressive, not careful, discriminated, and objectified women. He got things done by breaking the rules and creating new rules.

However, compared to the standards of the time, when it was recorded, he was humble and open and bla bla bla. After all, he commanded a diverse crew, and he could collaborate with them etc.

Janeway was, compared to when it was recorded not maternal she was congruent which many confuse with maternal because she is egalitarian and aware of other peoples needs, that’s not to say that she’s a doormat.

When Voyager was recorded it was difficult for women get top positions (still is—trump vs clinton anyone?) and make careers. Then, as now, women were not trusted to make decisions, were considered maternal and emotional. (Side note - look at what happens when Tuvok was made captain within a day mutiny almost happened.) Anyhow, Voyager challenged the prejudices of that time. Janeway got her way by following rules and knowing when not to follow them and when to bend them.

If you want to talk about something, why not talk about how Tuvok expresses so Much emotions with his face for being someone who oppresses his emotions.

 

[Kor]

Had to create an account just to reply to this thread because I find it sexist and provocative.

You can’t compare captains. If you do you miss the entire point with the captains. It is like comparing a painting by Michelangelo with one by Van Gogh. They are expressions of different things. Additionally, there’s no right answer. No best captain, and we aren’t in a position to determine who the best is.

Kirk was, with today’s standards a “Bro”. He’s a douche bag. If that show aired today it would fail, people would find it hard to relate to him. He was rough, bantered, was disobedient, aggressive, not careful, discriminated, and objectified women. He got things done by breaking the rules and creating new rules.

However, compared to the standards of the time, when it was recorded, he was humble and open and bla bla bla. After all, he commanded a diverse crew, and he could collaborate with them etc.

Janeway was, compared to when it was recorded not maternal she was congruent which many confuse with maternal because she is egalitarian and aware of other peoples needs, that’s not to say that she’s a doormat.

When Voyager was recorded it was difficult for women get top positions (still is—trump vs clinton anyone?) and make careers. Then, as now, women were not trusted to make decisions, were considered maternal and emotional. (Side note - look at what happens when Tuvok was made captain within a day mutiny almost happened.) Anyhow, Voyager challenged the prejudices of that time. Janeway got her way by following rules and knowing when not to follow them and when to bend them.

If you want to talk about something, why not talk about how Tuvok expresses so Much emotions with his face for being someone who oppresses his emotions.

Welcome to TrekBBS. While it was a noble sentiment to want to respond on a matter that you feel so strongly about, this thread has been dead and buried for eight years. It could be argued that drudging it up and bringing it back into the light of day all this time later will just give greater publicity to the arguments that you found objectionable. It's also against the BBS rules to resurrect a thread that's been dead for more than a year.

Kor

 

[NewHeavensNewEarth]

Welcome to TrekBBS. While it was a noble sentiment to want to respond on a matter that you feel so strongly about, this thread has been dead and buried for eight years. It could be argued that drudging it up and bringing it back into the light of day all this time later will just give greater publicity to the arguments that you found objectionable. It's also against the BBS rules to resurrect a thread that's been dead for more than a year.

Kor

That required a lot of digging to find this thread! A new thread can be started on the topic, but this one should be allowed to fade into the BBS abyss.

 

[jackie brown]

I was not aware of the do not resuscitate rule. My apologies. Given that I found this thread via google and that more people likely will rewatch Voyager thanks to the new Picard movie, I wanted to reply. This will be my last log entry.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Janeway had 3 dogs.

She is a mother.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

Janeway had 3 dogs.

She is a mother.

She also gave birth to three babies with an assist from Lt Paris.

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[Guy Gardener]

If Space Salamanders are like Earth Salamanders...

Salamanders eggs are fertilized by the female picking up spermatophore from the ground or water where it was deposited by the male; the salamanders lay the fertilized eggs either in water or on land depending on the specific species and produce larvae that hatch with gills, a tail and weak legs.

Janeway and Paris did not have sex.

She rolled around in a Puddle of Paris.

No physical contact.

Abandoning those kids on a moon, disqualifies Kathryn from every Mother of the Year competition in the galaxy.