James Cameron's "Avatar" (grading and discussion)

[wamdue]

some politically correct parents might like there kids to play with this

http://www.amazon.com/Camerons-Avatar-Shaggy-Action-Figure/dp/B002SNA8TU/ref=pd_bxgy_t_img_c

the wheels bad better spin, or its going to be a rubbish toy

 

[Trippy]

The fact that some story elements are not original doesn't bother me at all. If it did I would hardly watch any movie at all!! The point is I thought the story told as it is was done in a very dramatic and captivating manner.

The plot devices used from other movies were almost EXACTLY copied from said film. The Dances With Wolves comparison with Dunbar keeping a 'log' of his experience with the Native Americans that is eventually used against him VS Sully keeping a 'log' of his experieces with the Na'vi that is eventually used against him. Kicking Bird from Dances With Wolves is the same character as Neyteri's father in Avatar. The 'angry' Na'vi character who challenges Sully is the same as the 'angry' Native American character who challeges Dunbar in Dances. Even Neyteri is much like Stands with a Fist in Dances. Both heroines are charged with having the hero 'learn' the culture and neither really want to at first. Then, both fall in love with their 'student'.

I could go on but you get my point. Avatar borrowed HEAVILY from Dances With Wolves. Avatar also borrowed heavily from Braveheart, but I'll save that point by point comparison for next time

I am certainly not disagreeing with you because I did see those comparisons myself. My point is that those plot elements are done very well in Avatar. If those plot points had been executed in apoor manner I would have not liked them, but the fact that they are not original doesn't bother me. There are even elements of Romeo & Juliet written by Shakespeare in the 17th century in Avatar so I really can be forgiving of a movie and story's unoriginality if it is executed in a creative and entertaining manner which I through Avatar really was.

Romeo and Juliet? Seriously? So ripping off a less than 20 year old movie is in comparison to themes from Shakespeare? Twilight has Romeo and Juliet themes. Is Twilight a good movie too?

 

[Brit]

For those who might care Target is already discounting the Avatar toys after only 90 days on the shelf. I never noticed them moving at my store, seems kids don't care to role play Pandora at home.

They can't keep them on the shelf here in Texas, and appearently the Neytiri figures are rare enought that some of the sellers on Amazon are charging twice as much for them as the other figures. At the end of December I saw Neytiri six inch figures going for over 100 dollers each, it has come down now.

This is the four and a half inch Neytiri that usually sells for under 10 dollers

http://www.amazon.com/Camerons-Avat...e=UTF8&s=toys-and-games&qid=1266183742&sr=1-2

This is the six inch Jake that usually sells for just under 15.00

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938631&pf_rd_i=507846

and the matching six inch Neytiri that also usually sells for just under 15.00

http://www.amazon.com/Camerons-Avatar-Masters-Neytiri-Figure/dp/B002MUAP88/ref=pd_bxgy_t_img_b

I would imagine some characters don't sell as well as others but these seem to be doing pretty well

Brit

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Romeo and Juliet? Seriously? So ripping off a less than 20 year old movie is in comparison to themes from Shakespeare?

Well, when Shakespeare ripped off "Romeo and Juliet" - not themes, but characters and plot - from earlier versions of the play it was still quite popular in Europe.

Somehow we remember Shakespeare's rewrite.

 

[Trippy]

I'm an English teacher, I know that Shakespeare lifted too. Shakespeare's genius was making the story his own using the English language to perfection.

Cameron does not have that genius.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

I'm an English teacher, I know that Shakespeare lifted too. Shakespeare's genius was making the story his own using the English language to perfection.

Cameron does not have that genius.

Compared to the antecedents that are being cited here? Hah!

But I guess you've gotta say something, when the premise that "good writers don't lift something recent" fell flat on its face.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

It's more like "when good writers lift something, they do so in a new, unexpected or especially creative manner." Which Shakespeare did. Frequently. Cameron with Avatar? Very much open to debate. Leastwise, I highly doubt we'll ever truly compare Cameron to Shakespeare.

 

[stj]

The "Indians" win in Avatar. That makes seriously comparing plot points with Dances with Wolves kind of obtuse. It's a classic example of missing the forest for the trees.

The Louis Gossett/Dennis Quaid movie Enemy Mine or the Westerns Little Big Man and Soldier Blue should be referenced in my opinion. Also any fantasies where the lead is actually reborn in a different, superior body.

 

[Trippy]

I'm an English teacher, I know that Shakespeare lifted too. Shakespeare's genius was making the story his own using the English language to perfection.

Cameron does not have that genius.

Compared to the antecedents that are being cited here? Hah!

But I guess you've gotta say something, when the premise that "good writers don't lift something recent" fell flat on its face.

I didn't bring up the Romeo and Juliet reference. I was only noting that Romeo and Juliet themes are in many films.

Hey, if you believe Avatar is a new and exciting plot, good on ya. I don't.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

Are we actually disucssing if Shakespeare ever lifted material from other writers?

 

[Trippy]

Romeo and Juliet was brought up by Space Therapist though it was written in the 16th century, not the 17th

 

[Blue_Trek]

I remember taking Romeo & Juliet in school it was part of the English curriculum, but that was many years ago. I don't remember the teacher saying who Shakespeare stole the story from, so please do tell, that is if you know.
Somehow if the story existed before that, I doubt it existed in the English language.

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

It was alright.

But, this is the only time anyone will say this -

Coulda used less cowbell.

 

[Agenda]

I remember taking Romeo & Juliet in school it was part of the English curriculum, but that was many years ago. I don't remember the teacher saying who Shakespeare stole the story from, so please do tell, that is if you know.
Somehow if the story existed before that, I doubt it existed in the English language.

I'm not sure, but maybe it was from this story: The Tragical History of Romeus and Juliet

 

[Kegg]

Romeo & Juliet is an honestly pretty vague association. Okay, it's a story about star crossed lovers from different sides, but it doesn't end up with them dying or Romeo coming to believe Juliet's family is in the ethical right.

Somehow if the story existed before that, I doubt it existed in the English language.

Most of Shakespeare's plays are directly based off earlier stories, and those that aren't; are heavily influenced by cliches (A Comedy of Errors is a pastiche of any given Plautus or Terence play, which in turn were ripoffs of Menander's lost works).

That Romeo & Juliet is set in Italy should have been a tipoff that Shakespeare stole the damn thing.

 

[jefferiestubes8]

'How Avatar Should Have Ended' video

See the 2 minute animated 'How Avatar Should Have Ended' video:
http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid43615479001?bctid=62889043001


It's pretty funny.

via
http://www.howitshouldhaveended.com/videos?bcpid=51434042001&bclid=41247345001&bctid=62889043001
this site does a lot of other films too.

 

[Rii]

How you folks have managed to generate 1500 posts about this film is beyond me.

 

[Gojira]

Romeo & Juliet is an honestly pretty vague association. Okay, it's a story about star crossed lovers from different sides, but it doesn't end up with them dying or Romeo coming to believe Juliet's family is in the ethical right.

Somehow if the story existed before that, I doubt it existed in the English language.

Most of Shakespeare's plays are directly based off earlier stories, and those that aren't; are heavily influenced by cliches (A Comedy of Errors is a pastiche of any given Plautus or Terence play, which in turn were ripoffs of Menander's lost works).

That Romeo & Juliet is set in Italy should have been a tipoff that Shakespeare stole the damn thing.

My basic point is that I can see story elements of Romeo & Juliet in Avatar which demonstrates that a movie doesn't have to be 100% original to be done well.

I think there is truth to the old adage that there is "nothing new under the sun." You can pick any movie and find plot elements and themes which are in other movies and stories. That is why I am forgiving of movies with unoriginal plot elements as long as it is executed well.

 

[Kegg]

^
Oh, quite. But the question then becomes how specifically much one owes to previous stories - plagiarism and such are still fairly meaningful critiques. Ultimately, though, I think the only thing that really matters (unless there's a court case about it) is the quality of the work.

How you folks have managed to generate 1500 posts about this film is beyond me.

A lot of those posts were posts expressing surprise about how many posts there were.

 

[Gojira]

The plot devices used from other movies were almost EXACTLY copied from said film. The Dances With Wolves comparison with Dunbar keeping a 'log' of his experience with the Native Americans that is eventually used against him VS Sully keeping a 'log' of his experieces with the Na'vi that is eventually used against him. Kicking Bird from Dances With Wolves is the same character as Neyteri's father in Avatar. The 'angry' Na'vi character who challenges Sully is the same as the 'angry' Native American character who challeges Dunbar in Dances. Even Neyteri is much like Stands with a Fist in Dances. Both heroines are charged with having the hero 'learn' the culture and neither really want to at first. Then, both fall in love with their 'student'.

I could go on but you get my point. Avatar borrowed HEAVILY from Dances With Wolves. Avatar also borrowed heavily from Braveheart, but I'll save that point by point comparison for next time

I am certainly not disagreeing with you because I did see those comparisons myself. My point is that those plot elements are done very well in Avatar. If those plot points had been executed in apoor manner I would have not liked them, but the fact that they are not original doesn't bother me. There are even elements of Romeo & Juliet written by Shakespeare in the 17th century in Avatar so I really can be forgiving of a movie and story's unoriginality if it is executed in a creative and entertaining manner which I through Avatar really was.

Romeo and Juliet? Seriously? So ripping off a less than 20 year old movie is in comparison to themes from Shakespeare? Twilight has Romeo and Juliet themes. Is Twilight a good movie too?

My point is, you can take any movie/story and find plot points and elements that have been done before. There is nothing new under the sun.

So my criteria is to judge a movie more on its execution rather than its originality.