Blom-kamp. I find it easiest to seperate syllables of a word if I find it dificult to spell (which is quite often as my spelling is abysmal.)
James Cameron's "Avatar" (grading and discussion)
- Thread starter chrisspringob
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Okay, for the one or two people who actually HAVEN'T seen Dances With Wolves, what movie would this best be compared to?
I never saw it, so I should probably go in thinking of a similar film cliche with ANOTHER example, so I can still fit in with you guys.
Mark
I never saw it, so I should probably go in thinking of a similar film cliche with ANOTHER example, so I can still fit in with you guys.
Mark
Pretty much any movie where a guy befriends or infiltrates a rival group to get some-kind-of tactical edge and ends up fighting for the group against his former employers.
The Last Samurai? Did you see that?
If not that, then Lawrence of Arabia, maybe, but I suspect the Tom Cruise vehicle will serve you better.
The Last Samurai is an apt comparison especially given the main characters quest for redemption.
Anyhow, just think of any movie where some one from the outside comes into a new area where the locals are backward. Said locals happen to live in an area where the outsiders want something of great value and need the locals to move. The outsiders at first try to bribe them, coax them to move and the locals don't move, hence the shooting starts. In a twist, an outsider befriends a local and then fights with the local against the outsiders. That in a nutshell is the tried and true theme of this movie. Like I said, I still enjoyed it, even though I may have seen said plot a gazillion times.
Anyhow, just think of any movie where some one from the outside comes into a new area where the locals are backward. Said locals happen to live in an area where the outsiders want something of great value and need the locals to move. The outsiders at first try to bribe them, coax them to move and the locals don't move, hence the shooting starts. In a twist, an outsider befriends a local and then fights with the local against the outsiders. That in a nutshell is the tried and true theme of this movie. Like I said, I still enjoyed it, even though I may have seen said plot a gazillion times.
Two westerns I can think of that are similar to Dances with Wolves in that a white man ends up fighting on the Indians side are Little Big Man and A Man Called Horse. These two movies predate Dances With Wolves which only shows that dances was far from original.
Edit to add - I am not sure if Horse took up arms against the Whites in A Man Called Horse or whether that happened in a Return of a Man Called Horse. It has been a long time since I have seen either movie.
Edit to add - I am not sure if Horse took up arms against the Whites in A Man Called Horse or whether that happened in a Return of a Man Called Horse. It has been a long time since I have seen either movie.
I agree with the majority of comments which say that the visuals are *really* good, but the story is hardly original or noteworthy, even if it is told with a bit of craft. I'll also say this: 3D cinema is still in its infancy, with plenty of issues it has to overcome (including the "gimmicky" nature of its premise, shots designed *solely* for 3D, and, more importantly, a propensity for 3D shots to present a *lot* of elements out-of-focus).
Avatar is a beautiful movie, but even the visual are not without fault or fundamental problems. Many of the creatures, while plausible in design, appear cartoonish on-screen (which is indicative of the Na'vi themselves). The facial expressions of the Na'vi seem more comparable to celebs with too much botox. Put simply, this is an exquisite cartoon -- but quite clearly a cartoon, nonetheless.
Personally, I think the movie mae its best connection with the "flying" scenes. But, otherwise, there wasn't much here that hasn't been seen before.
Avatar is a beautiful movie, but even the visual are not without fault or fundamental problems. Many of the creatures, while plausible in design, appear cartoonish on-screen (which is indicative of the Na'vi themselves). The facial expressions of the Na'vi seem more comparable to celebs with too much botox. Put simply, this is an exquisite cartoon -- but quite clearly a cartoon, nonetheless.
Personally, I think the movie mae its best connection with the "flying" scenes. But, otherwise, there wasn't much here that hasn't been seen before.
This movie just blew me away. I expected great things and got even more than I anticipated. The story and characters are engaging (if not particularly deep or original) and the visuals are truly mindblowing and literally jaw-droppig. (My mouth was probably open for at least half of the movie.) The detailed world Cameron has created is really immersive and unprecedented in its scope and creativity. Only a few cheesy moments that are hard to swallow keep the film from being completely great. Still, it's a must-see!
My rating: 9/10
p.s. See it in 3D. The 3D effect is the best I've seen by far and I did watch most of the recent RealD movies.
My rating: 9/10
p.s. See it in 3D. The 3D effect is the best I've seen by far and I did watch most of the recent RealD movies.
On reflection, the problem with Avatar's plot isn't that it's unoriginal but that it's science fiction instead of fantasy or historical pseudo-fantasy. We seem to accept archetypical stories like this when they're clothed in the old west, 18th century Japan, or Middle Earth. We can let our cynicism go and just enjoy how the standard tropes play out - not fret over whether they are new or not.
But the sci-fi setting invites us to imagine this as our future, and that makes people uncomfortable. I've already seen a lot of people curse and swear off the movie without seeing it because they assume it's environmentalist propaganda or that it must have a subtext saying civilization and technology are evil and primitive people are "natural", wholesome, and good.
But the sci-fi setting invites us to imagine this as our future, and that makes people uncomfortable. I've already seen a lot of people curse and swear off the movie without seeing it because they assume it's environmentalist propaganda or that it must have a subtext saying civilization and technology are evil and primitive people are "natural", wholesome, and good.
It's because you are telling a story based in the past where it is a fact the Native Americans were treated very badly, a wild west movie were the only justice was that dealt out with a gun or a movie telling a story about slavery and racism. People can watch those movies knowing it was the past and that things are better today (and they are. Even doomsayers have to admit we have come a long way).
You can watch those movies but then you see a science fiction movie such as this and perhaps the fact it takes place in the future and it is a rehash of Native American (or any indigenous people's) suffering it can be troubling cause you don't feel that humanity has improved or learned anything.
Avatar
My Grade: A-
Rated PG-13 for intense epic battle sequences and warfare, sensuality, language and some smoking.
(Gasp! NOT SMOKING!!! THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!!!)
-----------------
This year we've had at least two big directors splat their ejaculate all over audiences in spectacular ways (different for each director.) In the past we've had another big director do the same.
Years ago we had George Lucas do it. George Lucas is kind of like the self-centered guy who picks you up in a bar, pulls some shallow moves on you, somehow wins you over, and then he's in it all for himself and when his wad blows he's out the door without so much as a goodbye kiss, and in the process he stole your wallet.
This summer we had Michael Bay. Michael Bay likes it rough, he like it hard, and he like it fast. He pounds the shit out of you until you can't take anymore and then when it's all over he take a quick smoke and comes back for seconds. He doesn't care about wooing you he just wants to give it to you hard and rough whether you want it or not.
This weekend we get loved up my James Cameron. Who bukkakes on you like a super-soaker; but the man has just drank gallons of pineapple juice and while he's tender and magical his motives are shallow.
Welcome to Avatar; a $300 million dollar money-shot on the whole damn world.
The movie centers on a crippled marine who fills in for his deceased brother in a secret project being carried out on a moon in the Alpha Centauri system. On this moon there's three different groups of humans working towards fairly unique goals.
First we have the Corporate Assholes, on the moon there's unique mineral that… does... something but it's worth a hell of a lot and there's a key deposit of it under an alien village. The CAs want it for the money they can make off of using the mineral for... something.
Then there's the scientists, they simply want to study the native alien creatures -notably the intelligent humanoids on the planet-, their culture and the planet as a whole where creatures can interface with one another and nature itself via convenient USB ports built into the pony tails (or ears.)
Lastly we have the military guys; they want to conquer for the sake of conquering in the name of conquest.
Our marine protagonist is assigned to scientific unit as a marine to infiltrate one of the native tribes, to gain their trust, and get them to evacuate the land above the key deposit. This land is sacred to the aliens, so they're not willing to move. Naturally our marine is a jar-headed dolt who never stops to think about a single action he does and until he gets his act together through the plot he pretty much screws up everything he does. Nevertheless, he gets within the good-graces of the natives.
Eventually things go to shit; he has to fight for the natives and then Cameron cums all over us.
To be blunt the plot in this movie is very pedestrian. It's as-if Cameron looked at a chart with seven columns of words picked a word from each column and that was his plot.
Alien native hippies vs. corporate military assholes.
It's MadLibs for screenwriters.
Many have made comparisons with this movie to Dances with Wolves and the comparisons are apt, from what I remember about a movie I haven't watched in 12 years, there are many strong comparisons -including an "emasculating" nickname given the Outsider by the Natives. There's no reason to see this movie for the plot. You've seen it before and while this movie changes some of the details, characters, and setting it's all been done before and, story wise, done better.
Go see this fucking movie.
Because while Cameron often stumbles when it comes to characters and dialogue the man knows how to do action, how to do visuals and how to stage a scene; the action in this movie beats the action in all of this past summer's movies.... Combined.
It's so refreshing to see everything that's going on in an action scene, know what we're looking at and who we're looking at and have a visual scope to see what's going on in the background, midground, and foreground. When this movie does an action/set piece it knocks it so far out of the park you'd think the ball was hit by Superman with a corked bat.
Go see this fucking movie.
Most of all see it in 3D. The 3D presented in this movie is very well done. It doesn't -overly- suffer from the old gimmicks of "jamming things into the camera so it hovers over the first few rows of seats" the movie uses the third dimension for everything it's supposed to be. Depth.
There are scenes where the camera is following a helicopter and we're looking into the cockpit and the visuals of adjacent, distant, helicopters gives a real wonder of scope and real depth. There'll be times you'll swear the movie screen is a window looking into the movie world. Layers and depth.
The story isn't great, the dialogue isn't great, the main characters are so-so, the central love theme is fairly well done (I never thought I'd want to fuck a 10-foot-tall lanky elfin Smurf) but the action and visuals (I suspect even in 2D) are out of this world and will blow you away.
As I said above, A- which is me being a bit generous but it's all in visuals and action. The movie is only harmed by a weak plot.
My Grade: A-
Rated PG-13 for intense epic battle sequences and warfare, sensuality, language and some smoking.
(Gasp! NOT SMOKING!!! THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!!!)
-----------------
This year we've had at least two big directors splat their ejaculate all over audiences in spectacular ways (different for each director.) In the past we've had another big director do the same.
Years ago we had George Lucas do it. George Lucas is kind of like the self-centered guy who picks you up in a bar, pulls some shallow moves on you, somehow wins you over, and then he's in it all for himself and when his wad blows he's out the door without so much as a goodbye kiss, and in the process he stole your wallet.
This summer we had Michael Bay. Michael Bay likes it rough, he like it hard, and he like it fast. He pounds the shit out of you until you can't take anymore and then when it's all over he take a quick smoke and comes back for seconds. He doesn't care about wooing you he just wants to give it to you hard and rough whether you want it or not.
This weekend we get loved up my James Cameron. Who bukkakes on you like a super-soaker; but the man has just drank gallons of pineapple juice and while he's tender and magical his motives are shallow.
Welcome to Avatar; a $300 million dollar money-shot on the whole damn world.
The movie centers on a crippled marine who fills in for his deceased brother in a secret project being carried out on a moon in the Alpha Centauri system. On this moon there's three different groups of humans working towards fairly unique goals.
First we have the Corporate Assholes, on the moon there's unique mineral that… does... something but it's worth a hell of a lot and there's a key deposit of it under an alien village. The CAs want it for the money they can make off of using the mineral for... something.
Then there's the scientists, they simply want to study the native alien creatures -notably the intelligent humanoids on the planet-, their culture and the planet as a whole where creatures can interface with one another and nature itself via convenient USB ports built into the pony tails (or ears.)
Lastly we have the military guys; they want to conquer for the sake of conquering in the name of conquest.
Our marine protagonist is assigned to scientific unit as a marine to infiltrate one of the native tribes, to gain their trust, and get them to evacuate the land above the key deposit. This land is sacred to the aliens, so they're not willing to move. Naturally our marine is a jar-headed dolt who never stops to think about a single action he does and until he gets his act together through the plot he pretty much screws up everything he does. Nevertheless, he gets within the good-graces of the natives.
Eventually things go to shit; he has to fight for the natives and then Cameron cums all over us.
To be blunt the plot in this movie is very pedestrian. It's as-if Cameron looked at a chart with seven columns of words picked a word from each column and that was his plot.
Alien native hippies vs. corporate military assholes.
It's MadLibs for screenwriters.
Many have made comparisons with this movie to Dances with Wolves and the comparisons are apt, from what I remember about a movie I haven't watched in 12 years, there are many strong comparisons -including an "emasculating" nickname given the Outsider by the Natives. There's no reason to see this movie for the plot. You've seen it before and while this movie changes some of the details, characters, and setting it's all been done before and, story wise, done better.
Go see this fucking movie.
Because while Cameron often stumbles when it comes to characters and dialogue the man knows how to do action, how to do visuals and how to stage a scene; the action in this movie beats the action in all of this past summer's movies.... Combined.
It's so refreshing to see everything that's going on in an action scene, know what we're looking at and who we're looking at and have a visual scope to see what's going on in the background, midground, and foreground. When this movie does an action/set piece it knocks it so far out of the park you'd think the ball was hit by Superman with a corked bat.
Go see this fucking movie.
Most of all see it in 3D. The 3D presented in this movie is very well done. It doesn't -overly- suffer from the old gimmicks of "jamming things into the camera so it hovers over the first few rows of seats" the movie uses the third dimension for everything it's supposed to be. Depth.
There are scenes where the camera is following a helicopter and we're looking into the cockpit and the visuals of adjacent, distant, helicopters gives a real wonder of scope and real depth. There'll be times you'll swear the movie screen is a window looking into the movie world. Layers and depth.
The story isn't great, the dialogue isn't great, the main characters are so-so, the central love theme is fairly well done (I never thought I'd want to fuck a 10-foot-tall lanky elfin Smurf) but the action and visuals (I suspect even in 2D) are out of this world and will blow you away.
As I said above, A- which is me being a bit generous but it's all in visuals and action. The movie is only harmed by a weak plot.
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Above Average.
Wasn't sure what I'd think about this film but I really did end up enjoying it. The animation was stunning and the planet of Pandora was amazing. I didn't think I would enjoy the 3D aspect either but I loved it. Cameron did good work on making the Na'vi tribe come to life.
Even for the best FX movies, you need actors to make it work and Avatar doesn't fail here. Sam Worthington was the best thing (pratically the only thing) in Terminator Salvation and he delivers here. This guy is going to be a big star and rightly so. Although you never "see" Zoe Saldana, she does a great job bringing her character to life too. Sigourney Weaver and Stephen Lang do good work as well.
A few things I had some trouble with. At times, it's hard to overcome the "Dances with Smurfs" vibe. The political message here is unsubtle as hell and one-dimensional. Also, color me unimpressed with the final battle scene. I've seen dozens of movies that have done it better.
I don't know if this movie was Best Picture material but it's a really good film and I'll give Cameron credit once again for making a unique film. Just about every film he directs is.
Wasn't sure what I'd think about this film but I really did end up enjoying it. The animation was stunning and the planet of Pandora was amazing. I didn't think I would enjoy the 3D aspect either but I loved it. Cameron did good work on making the Na'vi tribe come to life.
Even for the best FX movies, you need actors to make it work and Avatar doesn't fail here. Sam Worthington was the best thing (pratically the only thing) in Terminator Salvation and he delivers here. This guy is going to be a big star and rightly so. Although you never "see" Zoe Saldana, she does a great job bringing her character to life too. Sigourney Weaver and Stephen Lang do good work as well.
A few things I had some trouble with. At times, it's hard to overcome the "Dances with Smurfs" vibe. The political message here is unsubtle as hell and one-dimensional. Also, color me unimpressed with the final battle scene. I've seen dozens of movies that have done it better.
I don't know if this movie was Best Picture material but it's a really good film and I'll give Cameron credit once again for making a unique film. Just about every film he directs is.
S
Stone_Cold_Sisko
Guest
My first thought was that James Cameron must be a huge World of Warcraft fan. I felt like I just took a tour of Azeroth, Outland, and the Night Elves zones, complete with flying mounts and the bigass holy tree! Elune be with you... err i mean, Eywah!
I give it a solid B+. Great effects, well made, well told. Very (very) by the numbers pedestrian plot. But the fact that such a formula plot was so watchable is a testament to James Cameron's skill. Now imagine what could have happened had Cameron started with a really good script. Err, wait I don't have to, that was T2, one of the most memorable films ever. Cameron can still tell a ripping yarn... but this is more True Lies and less T2 on the iconic scale imo. I saw it in 3D and would recommend it that way. I feel like on a "flat" normal screen, its flaws would be more pronounced. As it stands, you're into the "tour" of Pandora because of the 3D-ish stuff.
I give it a solid B+. Great effects, well made, well told. Very (very) by the numbers pedestrian plot. But the fact that such a formula plot was so watchable is a testament to James Cameron's skill. Now imagine what could have happened had Cameron started with a really good script. Err, wait I don't have to, that was T2, one of the most memorable films ever. Cameron can still tell a ripping yarn... but this is more True Lies and less T2 on the iconic scale imo. I saw it in 3D and would recommend it that way. I feel like on a "flat" normal screen, its flaws would be more pronounced. As it stands, you're into the "tour" of Pandora because of the 3D-ish stuff.
I kept flashing back to that ill-fated Final Fantasy movie from a decade ago, thinking that Avatar was the film they wanted to make all this time. You've got all the classic Final Fantasy elements there: a tree of life, evil military corporation, powerful woman in tune with the Earth, plucky friends, symbolic tools, etc.
As for the political allegory with the humans' incursion into Pandora, I suspect that it's deeper than many people give it credit for. Sure, at first it seems to be commentary on, say, Iraq, but the more I think about it, it's less about imperialism and more anti-Blackwater. After all, for the humans' faults in the film, some human skills were important enough to help the heroes move along, as well as help out in the final battle.
But that's just me.
As for the political allegory with the humans' incursion into Pandora, I suspect that it's deeper than many people give it credit for. Sure, at first it seems to be commentary on, say, Iraq, but the more I think about it, it's less about imperialism and more anti-Blackwater. After all, for the humans' faults in the film, some human skills were important enough to help the heroes move along, as well as help out in the final battle.
But that's just me.
I, personally, don't see how the movie's plot could be a commentarty on Iraq. Sure, we've invaded Iraq -anecdotaly- to aquire a resource -oil- but I doubt anyone would look at the Iraq people we were fighting over there as peace-loving, connected-to-the-Earth innocent victims of imperialism.
It's way more obviously a "message" on Native Americans, as the alien tribes were more resembled to Native Americans in culture, belief (connection to nature), dress and actions (thanking a killed creature for giving up its life.)
Overall, I don't really think the movie was supposed to be a "message" about anything. Any reasonable, caring, modern-day person would say that the militristic humans in this movie couldn't be more in the wrong so it seems pointless to make a movie centered around the premise we're supposed to change our minds about something through "learning" about the alien tribes. That's what a message movie should do, change your mind about the subject matter or at least consider the otherside.
Seems to me that the movie wasn't supposed to be a "message" so much as it was just supposed to be an interesting, gripping, story that made us care about the characters and more so the movie was more about the SFX ejaculate.
It's a shame that Cameron poured so much attention, work, and sweat into the SFX but the story got almost no attention at all. In a way it's simillar to the poblem Lucas had with the prequels, so much poured into the FX and spectacle and almost none poured into the story.
Now, where Cameron beats Lucas is that at the very least the characters here are far more interesting, engaging, and easier to connect with than the characters in the prequels and where the prequels were more about showing off effects (Hey! We need to have a CG space-race here! Because it'll look cool!) or coreographed fights, this movie at least made the FX serve the plot a bit more. The sequences came more naturally and the fight scenes and battle scenes were very well laid out and the final battle between our hero and our villian was less ballet and more brtual.
The story in this movie is "good" if pedestrian and has been told before but Cameron tells it fairly well, it's just nothing special. If the guy had spent another year or so developing the story after he devloped the FX he'd really have something here. As it is, the movie is a visual masterpiece with good action sequences but without a good story there's little reason to revisit it.
Am I the only one who thought the Na'vi felt more like some kind of African tribe, rather than Native American? By the way, I was getting this feeling while watching it, before I read here that Zoe Saldana was playing the main Na'vi, in case you're wondering if that coloured my perceptions of them or not.
I felt the movie was excellent. No word really needs to be said on how stunning the visuals are, they speak for themselves, though I will echo sentiments about how Pandora and it's inhabitants (both sentient and non-sentient, flora and fauna) managed to inspire a sense of wonder and awe in me, so I guess that definitely helped me to feel sadness when the marines start pillaging the place.
I haven't seen Dances with Wolves, though I knew vaguely what the storyline was about, and even without that movie, I recognised what the general plot was going to be fairly quickly (had an idea it would be this even before seeing it), but the interactions with the characters and the execution sold it to me, though admittedly, the Colonel was a OTT for me ("I wanna be home in time for dinner" ???)
It was cool seeing Sigourney Weaver again, she brings a lot to the screen in terms of warmth in a role when she wants to. Sam Worthington (couldn't place where I had seen him before, until this thread as well) was very endearing too. Zoe really sells her role as well. I don't know what the main corporate guy's actor's name is, but I did recognise him from his minor role in Friends, so it's cool to see him still doing acting
I felt the movie was excellent. No word really needs to be said on how stunning the visuals are, they speak for themselves, though I will echo sentiments about how Pandora and it's inhabitants (both sentient and non-sentient, flora and fauna) managed to inspire a sense of wonder and awe in me, so I guess that definitely helped me to feel sadness when the marines start pillaging the place.
I haven't seen Dances with Wolves, though I knew vaguely what the storyline was about, and even without that movie, I recognised what the general plot was going to be fairly quickly (had an idea it would be this even before seeing it), but the interactions with the characters and the execution sold it to me, though admittedly, the Colonel was a OTT for me ("I wanna be home in time for dinner" ???)
It was cool seeing Sigourney Weaver again, she brings a lot to the screen in terms of warmth in a role when she wants to. Sam Worthington (couldn't place where I had seen him before, until this thread as well) was very endearing too. Zoe really sells her role as well. I don't know what the main corporate guy's actor's name is, but I did recognise him from his minor role in Friends, so it's cool to see him still doing acting
That's certainly what it looks like....