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J.J. Abrams: 'Star Trek Into Darkness' Had 'Fundamental Story Problems

Re: J.J. Abrams: 'Star Trek Into Darkness' Had 'Fundamental Story Prob

Yeah, it's not as if those guys didn't admit a lot of their faults after the fact.

And while I think it's gonna be awesome, I still wouldn't take anyone involved with a production at their word about how good it is going to be. Very rarely do you have someone admit mistakes beforehand, it's usually all positive press otherwise they're shooting themselves in the foot. Hence, "We're all very pleased."
 
Re: J.J. Abrams: 'Star Trek Into Darkness' Had 'Fundamental Story Prob

ancient said:
Khan thought he was talking to Shatner-Kirk in that one scene when he revealed his name.

Pine-Kirk of course had to look up in an Almanac to find out that Khan was an advanced superman who fled Earth in the distant future year of 1996.
Click to expand...

ShatKirk had to ask Spock to do the research for him. :)
 
Re: J.J. Abrams: 'Star Trek Into Darkness' Had 'Fundamental Story Prob

Yup, no one in TOS batted an eyelid when he said his name either. Prime Spock had an inkling that it was important and reviewed the historical tapes to find out.

TOS covered this pretty well, Khan's escape in the Botany Bay was practically erased from history, the 73 of them notable only for their absense when the supermen were rounded up 300 years ago.

So really, no one *should* know who Khan is. Finding out details of even "important" people from the 1700's is extremely difficult given the inaccuracy (deliberate or otherwise) of documents from the era.

It's just something to jumpstart Spock's natural curiosity in both universes.
 
Re: J.J. Abrams: 'Star Trek Into Darkness' Had 'Fundamental Story Prob

Arguments that would go over better if Cumberbatch and the score hadn't been conspiring to make the reveal seem like a Huge Freaking Twist.

Kirk and Spock rightly don't give a shit even as the heavy music thuds away, which just raises the question of what the fuck the movie is trying to accomplish at that point. It's the only time I think I've ever seen a soundtrack break the fourth wall.

Edit: Okay, that's a shitty counter argument. What's more important is STID buried Khan's identity behind "John Harrison," thus making his true identity something worth hiding in-universe and thus making the reveal an important story beat that didn't matter because it didn't matter to the characters. What TOS did in Space Seed is not comparable.

And before anyone gets super defensive about this (like I know will happen), I liked Into Darkness overall. But the handling of Khan and the torpedo thing were both flaws that could have been ironed out. It's not some unreasonable nitpicky criticism to see it that way. It's a movie having a couple big flaws. It happens.
 
Re: J.J. Abrams: 'Star Trek Into Darkness' Had 'Fundamental Story Prob

Arguments that would go over better if Cumberbatch and the score hadn't been conspiring to make the reveal seem like a Huge Freaking Twist.

Kirk and Spock rightly don't give a shit even as the heavy music thuds away, which just raises the question of what the fuck the movie is trying to accomplish at that point. It's the only time I think I've ever seen a soundtrack break the fourth wall.
Click to expand...

the music that follows after 'My name is KHAN!' sounds quite Horner-esque as if it were a nod to TWOK scene of Khan talking to Terrel/Chekov on Ceti alpha so yes guess it does break the fourth wall to the audience
 
Re: J.J. Abrams: 'Star Trek Into Darkness' Had 'Fundamental Story Prob

Watching at that, it also doesn't immediately cut to Kirk. Khan says his name and the shot holds on him as his expression changes. He goes from looking upset to arrogant as hell, all over the course of one syllable. The moment is about his reaction, not Kirk's.

And Kirk does react. It's just he seems more hung up on 'admiral woke up a 200 year old and wiped his identity.'
 
Re: J.J. Abrams: 'Star Trek Into Darkness' Had 'Fundamental Story Prob

Section 31 may have some independence from Starfleet, but both agencies have historical archives, including Memory Alpha.

I'm sure a lot of the resources going into the Vengeance would not have been allocated should some Admirals realise the man designing it was a 20th century tyrant who single-handidly ruled a quarter of the Earth. Rather than Mr Harrison from whereever the hell S31 said he was.

Using his name too openly in conjunction with advanced R&D programs, the Vengeance program, weapons developement (which we know Carol's London division was at least partly responsible for helping build) and so on would lead someone, somewhere with McGiver's background to catch on too soon.

The point was to deliver the villains name to the audience, whereas the heroes are given the dramatic reveal that divisions of Starfleet are not only flat out lying to one another, but have false operatives at very high levels who aren't who they say they are. Who are trying to engineer a war.

Both are given something significant, just not the same thing.
 
Re: J.J. Abrams: 'Star Trek Into Darkness' Had 'Fundamental Story Prob

Chemahkuu said:
Section 31 may have some independence from Starfleet, but both agencies have historical archives, including Memory Alpha.

I'm sure a lot of the resources going into the Vengeance would not have been allocated should some Admirals realise the man designing it was a 20th century tyrant who single-handidly ruled a quarter of the Earth. Rather than Mr Harrison from whereever the hell S31 said he was.

Using his name too openly in conjunction with advanced R&D programs, the Vengeance program, weapons developement (which we know Carol's London division was at least partly responsible for helping build) and so on would lead someone, somewhere with McGiver's background to catch on too soon.

The point was to deliver the villains name to the audience, whereas the heroes are given the dramatic reveal that divisions of Starfleet are not only flat out lying to one another, but have false operatives at very high levels who aren't who they say they are. Who are trying to engineer a war.

Both are given something significant, just not the same thing.
Click to expand...
Which is why I enjoy it. There are times when both films have multiple meanings woven as part of their scenes. I enjoy it very much.
 
Re: J.J. Abrams: 'Star Trek Into Darkness' Had 'Fundamental Story Prob

STID had flaws and the plot falls apart under any real scrutiny yet I consider it to be one of my favorite ST movies (I liked the 2009 one a lot too). I don't know what it is exactly about the nuTrek movies but I find it hard to avoid watching them whenever it is on TV. I think that the strength of the nuTrek cast helps pull the movies over their weaker elements and BC did a good turn as the scheming Khan. They really did find some good actors/actresses for the iconic characters they play.
 
Re: J.J. Abrams: 'Star Trek Into Darkness' Had 'Fundamental Story Prob

Gep Malakai said:
Arguments that would go over better if Cumberbatch and the score hadn't been conspiring to make the reveal seem like a Huge Freaking Twist.

Kirk and Spock rightly don't give a shit even as the heavy music thuds away, which just raises the question of what the fuck the movie is trying to accomplish at that point. It's the only time I think I've ever seen a soundtrack break the fourth wall.

Edit: Okay, that's a shitty counter argument. What's more important is STID buried Khan's identity behind "John Harrison," thus making his true identity something worth hiding in-universe and thus making the reveal an important story beat that didn't matter because it didn't matter to the characters. What TOS did in Space Seed is not comparable.

And before anyone gets super defensive about this (like I know will happen), I liked Into Darkness overall. But the handling of Khan and the torpedo thing were both flaws that could have been ironed out. It's not some unreasonable nitpicky criticism to see it that way. It's a movie having a couple big flaws. It happens.
Click to expand...

This perfectly summarizes the silliness of how the Khan reveal was handled.
 
Re: J.J. Abrams: 'Star Trek Into Darkness' Had 'Fundamental Story Prob

Let's bear in mind that JJ also says he had problems with Super 8, which as I understand it was some sort of labour of love for him. Which makes it unlikely he means lack of interest/respect was the problem. When he says "story problems", he's talking about technical things: plot causality chains and character arcs, not fan outrage over reusing Khan.
 
Re: J.J. Abrams: 'Star Trek Into Darkness' Had 'Fundamental Story Prob

I agree with Mr. Abrams And The Millions Of Angry Fans that STID's script has issues. I still really like it, though. But yeah.
 
Re: J.J. Abrams: 'Star Trek Into Darkness' Had 'Fundamental Story Prob

Trekkies couldn't come up with a million angry fans if they somehow lured every convention goer into a Cinnabon and then served them celery.

You know what had story problems? Star Trek: The Fucking Motion Picture had story problems.
 
Re: J.J. Abrams: 'Star Trek Into Darkness' Had 'Fundamental Story Prob

My problem with TMP is that I tend to fall asleep midway through, myself.

I need the gee-whizbang. I want the bam and the pew-pew.

Maybe I'm a millenial.

Decent film otherwise.
 
Re: J.J. Abrams: 'Star Trek Into Darkness' Had 'Fundamental Story Prob

Dennis said:
Trekkies couldn't come up with a million angry fans if they somehow lured every convention goer into a Cinnabon and then served them celery.

You know what had story problems? Star Trek: The Fucking Motion Picture had story problems.
Click to expand...

It had problems, and lots of them. Story was just one of several.
 
Re: J.J. Abrams: 'Star Trek Into Darkness' Had 'Fundamental Story Prob

ancient said:
Khan thought he was talking to Shatner-Kirk in that one scene when he revealed his name.
Click to expand...

"Khan is my name."

"My name is Khan."

Maybe Space Seed Khan thought he was talking to Pine-Kirk, or something.

ancient said:
Pine-Kirk of course had to look up in an Almanac to find out that Khan was an advanced superman who fled Earth in the distant future year of 1996.
Click to expand...

Just like Shatner-Kirk & Co. had to look it up in their computer system after Shatner-Kirk initially showed no recognition of the name.

Khan 2.0 said:
he definitely should've made sure Javier Bardem or BDT (or even a pumped up Antoino Banderas with shoe lifts) was locked for Khan.
Click to expand...

Or how about this:

Given that it's the 2010s as opposed to the 1960s, maybe he should have actually cast an Indian in the role?

Just saying...
 
Last edited:
Re: J.J. Abrams: 'Star Trek Into Darkness' Had 'Fundamental Story Prob

Shatner Kirk couldn't be bothered, Spock did all the researching.
 
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