I've never read any of the Tarzan books, but I get the feeling Pocket may have used that

[Christopher]

That sort of did happen in TNG.

And that was commendable, an attempt to take the idea of unisex clothing seriously by letting it go both ways. Unfortunately, it couldn't overcome the cultural double standard. Which is just my point. The unisex skants in TNG are routinely derided as silly, even though nobody has a problem with women wearing pants. It isn't egalitarian.

 

[Tuskin38]

The fact that Star Trek used Sir/Mr. for both genders confused me when I was younger, and just assumed it was a USA military thing.

IIRC NuBSG also used the Mr/Sir for both genders as well.

 

[The Wormhole]

The fact that Star Trek used Sir/Mr. for both genders confused me when I was younger, and just assumed it was a USA military thing.

IIRC NuBSG also used the Mr/Sir for both genders as well.

Again, that had more to do with Ron Moore's preferred way of doing things than actual military practice. In fact, it was seriously considered to have President Roslin addressed as "Mister President."

And that was commendable, an attempt to take the idea of unisex clothing seriously by letting it go both ways. Unfortunately, it couldn't overcome the cultural double standard. Which is just my point. The unisex skants in TNG are routinely derided as silly, even though nobody has a problem with women wearing pants. It isn't egalitarian.

Although the skant is often derisively referred to as the "man-skirt" I was under the impression the costume wasn't generally well received anyway? That's why Marina Sirtis no longer wore it after Farpoint, and why it was done away with completely in the second season.

 

[borgboy]

I loved the TNG miniskirt. I love that they were daring enough to at least have it be unisex and show a few extras wearing it. It should've been Troi's default uniform instead of all the civilian outfits, and I'd have had Worf and Riker wear it occasionally.

 

[5billionof5billion]

Given that Trek is a pseudo military organization I saw Mr as a gender neutral form of address as something along the lines of using "sir" when referring to a female superior officer.
I do consider myself a pretty radical feminist, but the Mr thing never bothered me. There are people in Star Fleet who wouldn't be strictly male or female by our standards anyways, and Miss/Mrs is problematic due to it being hinged on marital status.
Ms is perfectly fine.

Actually, MS would be better so that a girl doesn't have to give away her marital status and foregoing her gender altogether with an inaccurate honorific. When they tried me at a Junior College, I was forced to take English a couple semesters, which was nothing but a waste of time; and the second professor I had used MS so she wouldn't have to give away her marital status.
Another thing about the way the book ended with no honor was that Erzula greatly upset her mom by robbing her of the child she gave birth to when she could've at least tried a few years on the Cyprian planet and then rejoined the Klingons if that was still her wish. With all due respect, Greg, I can't imagine that you could've been writing any of this book on Mother's Day.
God bless, Jason Irelan

 

[Greg Cox]

In general, authors should not argue with readers since you just end up sounding thin-skinned and defensive. You can't expect every reader to like everything you write. That's just how it goes.

But since you honestly seem to want to have this conversation (which is fine, btw, and vastly preferable to a book provoking no reaction whatsoever), I liked to think that there was closure of sorts for Elzura's mother; at least she knows now that her long-lost child is alive and well and living a life that suits her . . . and she got her other daughter back in the process, since the older sister (whose name escapes me) will no longer be obsessed with tracking down the long-lost Elzy.

You seem to feel strongly that blood bonds and biological family trump all other considerations. Fair enough, but I suspect we're not entirely on the same page there. Ultimately, I thought it was more important that Elzura/Merata be able to choose her own destiny and identity, regardless of whatever her biological family or her adopted family thought. We all have to leave the nest sometime, and become our own people.

At least that's where I was coming from. Sorry it didn't work for you.

 

[5billionof5billion]

We all have to do without biological parents when they pass away. I still miss my dad, and it's been quite a few years. Another thing that made this book troubling was that she purposely made it so that the one who went to the pain of giving birth to her wouldn't be able to see her again instead of not allowing her to be with her for a few weeks or days once in a while. Now the beginning was sort of okay when Spock pointed out that extinguishing combustion on his seventh birthday would have nothing to do with wishes being granted, but I wish I could've seen how that would've turned out if his dad would've been there. It almost makes it seem like her mom used the wrong terminology when she said enjoyed a human tradition instead of embraced. Also, was his seven-year-old brain too underdeveloped to say something about blowing out the candles without making a wish and thereby without saying it, given his mom the chance to make a wish while he blew them out?
Speaking of books that have the word Child in them, is there at least one scene in Warchild where Odo does a shapeshift? I've seen one part with him in it, but there's quite a wait until he's there again because he doesn't appear until like 141 or 143. I like to have him do his trick in a book for the same reason that some people might climb a mountain. Some people might do it because it's there, and I like to see Odo do his thing because he can.
God bless, Jason Irelan

 

[Therin of Andor]

Ms is perfectly fine.

Except I know some women who get very angry when people direct it at them.

 

[Christopher]

Except I know some women who get very angry when people direct it at them.

That doesn't mean it's wrong for other people, though. It's a matter of individual preference. If a woman wants to be addressed as Ms., call her Ms., and if she wants to be addressed some other way, call her that. It's that simple.

 

[Therin of Andor]

That doesn't mean it's wrong for other people, though. It's a matter of individual preference. If a woman wants to be addressed as Ms., call her Ms., and if she wants to be addressed some other way, call her that. It's that simple.

Yes, of course. But I have seen women tear strips off guys who've used the term assuming it was going to be acceptable to them. The expectation that everyone in the 21st century is a mind reader?

 

[borgboy]

Yes, of course. But I have seen women tear strips off guys who've used the term assuming it was going to be acceptable to them. The expectation that everyone in the 21st century is a mind reader?

Some people are unreasonable. People have no way of knowing if a woman uses Ms, Miss or Mrs, and unless you have some knowledge of them, would have no way of knowing if Miss or Mrs would be applicable.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Some people are unreasonable.

As a young gentleman in the 70s, I would open doors for woman, as I'd been taught. Suddenly, in the 80s, I was being yelled at for attempting the same thing.

These days I open doors for anyone, and hope that as I get older someone might open doors for me...

 

[Christopher]

Yes, of course. But I have seen women tear strips off guys who've used the term assuming it was going to be acceptable to them. The expectation that everyone in the 21st century is a mind reader?

No, the expectation is that you should ask first instead of assuming. When people meet me for the first time, they frequently ask if I prefer "Christopher" or "Chris." That's common courtesy. And it should be the same with other identifiers like titles, gender pronouns, etc. If there's any ambiguity, you ask first.

 

[Therin of Andor]

No, the expectation is that you should ask first instead of assuming. When people meet me for the first time, they frequently ask if I prefer "Christopher" or "Chris." That's common courtesy. And it should be the same with other identifiers like titles, gender pronouns, etc. If there's any ambiguity, you ask first.

"Common courtesy" is not even agreed upon by everyone. There are so many cultural aspects to this stuff, but there is also no need for people to get so irritated. I saw a poor guy get castigated the other night when, newly introduced to a group, he asked a Catherine if she preferred "Cathy" or "Catherine". He asked her very politely and she cut him to the quick. It was mortifying.

I can think of many times where it hadn't been possible for me to ask first, re the use of "Ms", such as when I did casual teaching in a different school every day, and I would have to somehow identify female teachers to the students having never actuallly met the teachers to check on their preferences. For a brief time in the early 80s, it seemed like "Ms" might have become acceptable to all (about the same time that "Mr Saavik" was seen as some futuristic resolution).

As for asking first, I would often get asked in new schools how I pronounced my surname, McLean, I'd tell them, then the Principal would announce me to the whole school with a different pronunciation anyway. My cousin is a solicitor and, after about ten years of courtroom mispronunciations of his surname, he actually changed the way his young family pronounce it, much to his own mother's dismay!

 

[5billionof5billion]

Well if there's a chance that a female will get angry over having Ms. directed at her, then the best thing to do is say ma'am when speaking to her. I grew up in a Christian school where that was required when answering a female teacher. If you're talking about her in the third person, you should probably say Ms.

Since nobody's answered my question about Warchild having any shapeshifting action, does that mean nobody knows? I know it's a book that's over 20 years old, but I was hoping someone would know. There was a reference to a fairy tale that's probably from the brothers Grimm called Cinderella, and that particular one has a flub that a lot of people don't notice. You notice her clothes disappear after her curfew, but for some reason the glass slipper she left behind does not. Is there a logical explanation behind that?
God bless, Jason Irelan

 

[T'Ressa Dax]

Well if there's a chance that a female will get angry over having Ms. directed at her, then the best thing to do is say ma'am when speaking to her. I grew up in a Christian school where that was required when answering a female teacher. If you're talking about her in the third person, you should probably say Ms.

Since nobody's answered my question about Warchild having any shapeshifting action, does that mean nobody knows? I know it's a book that's over 20 years old, but I was hoping someone would know. There was a reference to a fairy tale that's probably from the brothers Grimm called Cinderella, and that particular one has a flub that a lot of people don't notice. You notice her clothes disappear after her curfew, but for some reason the glass slipper she left behind does not. Is there a logical explanation behind that?
God bless, Jason Irelan

Don't know about that, other than that part wasn't thought through. As for Warchild, a quick check on Google Books shows that Odo shapeshifted at least once, into a Bajoran animal called a hyurin. It's pretty easy to look most things up on Google Books.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Well if there's a chance that a female will get angry over having Ms. directed at her, then the best thing to do is say ma'am when speaking to her.

That worked out well for someone (Harry Kim) in "Voyager". Not.

(CORRECTED)

 

[The Wormhole]

That worked out well for someone (Paris?) in "Voyager". Not.

Harry Kim, actually. In Caretaker, after Janeway informed him that she didn't like being addressed as "Sir" despite Starfleet protocol, he ventures calling her "Ma'am" to which she said is acceptable in a crunch, but she generally prefers "Captain." A few minute later when he calls her "Ma'am" she informs him "it's not Crunch Time yet." Throughout the series "Ma'am" becomes the regular manner in which Janeway is addressed by everyone, even other females. And on a few occasions she even ends up being called "Sir."

Also worth mentioning in this discussion, in the TV series The Last Ship (set on board a modern-day US Navy ship) there's one episode where a female officer is addressed as "Ma'am" and she snaps "Don't call me Ma'am."

 

[Therin of Andor]

The fact that Star Trek used Sir/Mr. for both genders confused me when I was younger, and just assumed it was a USA military thing.

Spock says "Miss Uhura" in an early TOS episode.

 

[Christopher]

The only time a woman was ever unambiguously addressed as "Mister" in Trek, as far as I can determine, was in TWOK. Tomlinson called Martine "Mister" at one point in "Balance of Terror," but it was clearly joking banter in response to her calling him that one line earlier.