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I've never liked Kirk as a character - is this somehow blasphemy?

a beaker full of death did not insult anyone. He merely described our generation.
Yes he did. The replies are all the evidence that one should need to know he insulted people. What you're trying to say is that he didn't mean to insult anybody and there again I disagree because of his use of a loaded statement. Describing his generation was wholly unnecessary and out of what would be considered relevant for the sake of this discussion unless his intent was to draw a distinction between his generation and the generation that disagrees with his assessment of the issues (as though there were only one- lol.) "We seek to exceed limitations not embrace them. We strive. We're interesting." Those all very directly imply that the converse is true of the generation to which that was directed. It's as plain as the purple sombrero on Spocks head (which is awesome by the way.)


If you're going to take pot shots be prepared for the ramifications.


-Withers-​
 
I think of all the captains, Kirk is the one i could not picture as a real life person. picard, yes. There are people who like archaeology, Shakespeare, philosophy, or who are skilled at resolving conflicts.

Sisko, again yes. There are people in the real world who are bold in their persona, like to cook, are single fathers, or who are militarily skilled.

Janeway, yet again, yes. Plenty of people have an interest in science, or like coffee a lot.

But Kirk was not somebody one could relate to. Having quirks such as Earl Grey Tea, Raktajino, or black coffee, is something that most people in the real world have. All we ever saw of Kirk was him chasing women or being charismatic.

Your joking right?

I think Kirk is the most human of all those people let alone a real person.

I'm being serious. I've never liked Kirk since i think he's too shallow as a character. He has no quirks, and I couldn't imagine him as a real-life person. I can for Picard, Sisko and Janeway.
 
All we ever saw of Kirk was him chasing women or being charismatic.
And quoting Milton, reciting ancient political charters, collecting antiques, quoting Dickens, climbing mountains, and retreating to a cabin in the wilderness so he could ride horses and cook. His fondness for history and literature makes him a veritable proto-Picard, albeit with a one with a taste for the hard stuff.
 
He's not from Brokow's Generation. His generation (and mine) are the kids that generation produced. We brought you hard rock, disco, questionable fashion choices and what we thought was rebellion. We're also just as likely to prefer one product over another as any other generation.

Really? I assumed you and I were approximately the same age. For some reason your posts remind me of this guy I went to college with. (I hope that isn't wildly offensive. I didn't mean it to be.) Anyway, thanks for the rock, thanks for platform shoes (I'm short), thanks for the questionable fashion choices and you'll be happy to know the idea of false rebellion lives on (we call it being "emo").

But as for the snide implications and unfair assumptions? Keep 'em. We've got each other and what mass media tells us to think of ourselves for that. :)
[Dr.Evil] I'm hip...I'm with it[/Dr Evil]

I'm not insulted. Now if only l looked like a guy in his twenties! Yeah, I'm not one to buy this "things were better in my day" BS and "Get offa my lawn!" crap. There's crap in every generation and greatness too.
 
I much prefer the writing on TOS, but alluding to classical mythology doesn't mean the writing is better. The show also used simple tiles like the Empath, Miri and Arena. While the other shows used titles like Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges, Where Silence Has Lease and Ex Post Facto.

So titles such as:

- Family
- The Pegasus
- The Loss
- Sins of the Father
- Booby Trap
- A Fistful of Datas
- Skin of Evil
- If Wishes were Horses
- Call to Arms
- Nor the Battle to the Strong
- The Sword of Kahless
- Threshold
- Raven

All do not simply describe the subject matter of the episode? Note all these episodes are from the 24th century, 80s, 90s and 2000s Trek, not the classic 60s Trek.
 
All we ever saw of Kirk was him chasing women or being charismatic.
And quoting Milton, reciting ancient political charters, collecting antiques, quoting Dickens, climbing mountains, and retreating to a cabin in the wilderness so he could ride horses and cook. His fondness for history and literature makes him a veritable proto-Picard, albeit with a one with a taste for the hard stuff.

true. but this was in the films, not the TV series. It proves the point that he was not well developed in the series, only was in the films.
 
Milton is from Space Seed. The ancient political charter was from The Omega Glory. Besides, there's no reason to limit ourselves to TOS. This is in GenTrek, and all canon is fair game.
 
a beaker full of death did not insult anyone. He merely described our generation.
Yes he did. The replies are all the evidence that one should need to know he insulted people. What you're trying to say is that he didn't mean to insult anybody and there again I disagree because of his use of a loaded statement. Describing his generation was wholly unnecessary and out of what would be considered relevant for the sake of this discussion unless his intent was to draw a distinction between his generation and the generation that disagrees with his assessment of the issues (as though there were only one- lol.) "We seek to exceed limitations not embrace them. We strive. We're interesting." Those all very directly imply that the converse is true of the generation to which that was directed. It's as plain as the purple sombrero on Spocks head (which is awesome by the way.)


If you're going to take pot shots be prepared for the ramifications.


-Withers-​
I think the best response to your taking anything said to which you disagree as an insult, is a quote from Uhura (in TOS) in response to Abraham Lincoln:

"What a charming negress."
"Oh, forgive me, my dear. I know in my time some use that term as a description of property."
"But why should I object to that term, sir? In our century, we've learned not to fear words." - "Abraham Lincoln" and Uhura
 
I much prefer the writing on TOS, but alluding to classical mythology doesn't mean the writing is better. The show also used simple tiles like the Empath, Miri and Arena. While the other shows used titles like Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges, Where Silence Has Lease and Ex Post Facto.

So titles such as:

- Family
- The Pegasus
- The Loss
- Sins of the Father
- Booby Trap
- A Fistful of Datas
- Skin of Evil
- If Wishes were Horses
- Call to Arms
- Nor the Battle to the Strong
- The Sword of Kahless
- Threshold
- Raven

All do not simply describe the subject matter of the episode? Note all these episodes are from the 24th century, 80s, 90s and 2000s Trek, not the classic 60s Trek.
I was countering beaker's arguement. ;) The point being, all the shows used a variety of title types. Some fancy and some plain. Who Mourns for Adonais is a mediocre episode with a fancy title. No amount of poetry can change that.
 
He's not Abraham Lincoln, I (in spite of my best efforts one Halloween when I was five) am not Uhura and this isn't the 24th century. But, still, well played sir- point very much taken :)


-Withers-​
 
There's no doubt that beaker was trying to be insulting in his own curmudgeonly, get off of my lawn kind of way. It's his thing. ;) I sometimes picture him sitting at the piano singing "Those Were the Days" from the opening of All In the Family. :lol:

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znrjbo9QRLk[/yt]
 
true. but this was in the films, not the TV series. It proves the point that he was not well developed in the series, only was in the films.
Milton is from Space Seed. The ancient political charter was from The Omega Glory. Besides, there's no reason to limit ourselves to TOS. This is in GenTrek, and all canon is fair game.
Personally, I find too much emphasis being placed here on specific details. And on the quantity of details. It's not really about that, to me anyway. I mean, sure, knowing that Picard likes Earl Gray tea tells me more about him, ok. But I wouldn't even think to bring that up in any kind of "Kirk vs. Picard" discussion. It's just how I felt about the characters.

Quoting Milton or Dickens, collecting antiques and climbing mountains, drinking Earl Gray and enjoying fencing... those are elements. I'm not downplaying them entirely; without at least some details of that nature, a character could easily seem very flat. But it's not just about "how big a bulleted list can we compile on this guy". It's about the overall character, the sum total of tangible and intangible elements that make you find one character more interesting than another.

Regarding TOS (the show) vs. the movies, though, I actually DID find Kirk a hell of a lot more interesting in the movies, for the most part. Especially TUC; that was the finest product (episode OR movie) to feature the TOS cast and setting, ever.
I think the best response to your taking anything said to which you disagree as an insult, is a quote from Uhura (in TOS) in response to Abraham Lincoln:

"What a charming negress."
"Oh, forgive me, my dear. I know in my time some use that term as a description of property."
"But why should I object to that term, sir? In our century, we've learned not to fear words." - "Abraham Lincoln" and Uhura
Meh, I don't buy that. Just because some people don't find a comment the least bit offensive doesn't necessarily invalidate it if some others do. And that argument that if you were just "better" or "stronger" or some such, you would just ignore the comment, irks me.

That we should not let words get to us is a good idea in theory, but it is not a free pass for someone to just say whatever they want, and then go "What? They're just words" when someone calls them out on it. (Yes, in this case, the person saying "they're just words" is not the same as the person who made the comment, but you get the idea). And it's not like anyone came back and started hurling insults or curse words at Beaker, we simply said "You know, that's not cool."
 
Jesus. I go take a shower and a a shitstorm erupts in my wake. ok, in no particular order:

I wasn't taking potshots at anyone in particular. Was I drawing a distinction between generations? Well, duh. That was my point. If anyone considers that rude, I just don't know how I could possibly care less.

Someone pointed out it was unnecessary to bring up the generational thing. I strongly disagree; this is the crux of the whole issue. One cannot remove the characterization, both as written and as played from its time - not because acting has changed so much (though it has), but because our conception of a dramatic hero, and, indeed, of storytelling through this particular medium, has changed drastically between the generations.

And as for the idea that we all have our preferences and all are equal, horsehockey. There are quantifiable qualitative distinctions. An easy one: music. I think the majority will agree that most of the music of TNG was crap (and, sadly, deliberately so). I think most will agree that certain TOS episodes are crap. That's because there are artistic elements that we can discuss (with varying degrees of sophistication). But this we're-all-equally-right-and-we-all-get-a-medal-just-for-showing-up crap defeats the whole purpose of dialogue.

Edit: This is interesting: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124923602&ft=1&f=1049
 
Thanks, beaker, that is a very good article... and also very true.:techman: It illustrates some of the generational differences we have been discussing. I remember the same issue discussed when Clinton was president. Some were complaining that basic needed to be more PC and that drill instructors were too mean, etc. Now they are realizing they need to toughen recruits up more.
 
Does it come as a galloping shock to anyone else that the two of them agree so wholeheartedly?

You make it sounds as though the people who were perturbed by your statements all wanted to hold hands and sing Kumbaya as we put flowers in the barrels of guns and hugged trees and other such nonsense. No such thing happened here.

We called you out on your unfounded assertion that your generation is somehow better than the generation you were talking at (which ever one that might be) based on its love of TOS. Drawing a distinction between generations is fine. Differences exist. That's why we're not all the same generation. Implying, however, that what you like makes you better and conversely if we don't like it we're less is rude and was specifically meant to be offensive.

You took a pot shot and people responded, not in kind, but like grown ups asking you if your behavior was really warranted (a rhetorical question since its pretty obvious that it wasn't.) If you can't understand that, well...

I just don't know how I could possibly care less.


-Withers-​
 
Withers covered the issue of the response to your generational commentary pretty well, so I will leave that alone since I wouldn't be able to add anything significant to it.
Someone pointed out it was unnecessary to bring up the generational thing. I strongly disagree; this is the crux of the whole issue. One cannot remove the characterization, both as written and as played from its time - not because acting has changed so much (though it has), but because our conception of a dramatic hero, and, indeed, of storytelling through this particular medium, has changed drastically between the generations.
Ok, so these conceptions have changed. How does that play into this? I mean... surely we don't want a descent into:

Trek fan A: You just like Picard better because you're younger! The show was made with your generation in mind!
Trek fan B: You just like Kirk better because you're older! The show was made with your generation in mind!

I'm not even saying that these generational gaps and changes to the perception of what "good TV" is, or "a good hero" is, etc. are totally irrelevant. Hell, I'll admit it: I know that's true for me, to some degree, when it comes to TOS. Some of my larger issues with the show do stem from things that are linked to the era in which the show was made. But don't think it's the "crux of the entire issue", when it comes to Kirk and Picard (assuming that's what you meant).

And besides, acknowledging that something I don't like is only there because of when the show was made doesn't change the fact that the thing is still in the show. It can provide an explanation for why something is there, but that's all it is. I know that the ridiculous level of sexism displayed in TOS is partly - heck, largely - there because of when the show was made. That doesn't change the fact that said sexism drives me absolutely crazy whenever I watch the show.
And as for the idea that we all have our preferences and all are equal, horsehockey.
I don't mean that ANYONE who walks up and says they have an opinion on Trek should be taken on the same level as everyone else. There is such a thing as an uninformed opinion.

There are also certain aspects that can be compared objectively. For example: consoles explode a lot and kill people in modern Trek. They didn't do that much in TOS. That is clearly an invention of modern Trek. Now, personally, I think that's stupid (one area in which TOS was better, I suppose :lol:). And a case can be made for it being stupid, since it doesn't make any kind of logical sense for a control panel to have that much power running through it.

You can't really argue with the fact that this happens in modern Trek, and generally didn't happen much (at all?) in TOS. It's also really hard to argue with the idea that it makes no sense that consoles could explode and kill people like that. But that doesn't mean you can turn around and say that one episode of one show is - overall - objectively superior to another.
There are quantifiable qualitative distinctions. An easy one: music. I think the majority will agree that most of the music of TNG was crap (and, sadly, deliberately so).
I wouldn't agree with that statement at all. Much of the music was not that great, but "crap" is too strong (no, it's not semantics: "just okay" as opposed to "HORRID" is what I'm going for here). Mainly, when TNGs music was not good, it was just dull (as you say, there was this fascination with "wallpaper music," and I do agree that that is unfortunate). But TNG still had some great music, as well. And frankly, I personally think the vast majority of the background music from TOS IS crap. Not "dull", but bad music. It's certainly more noticeable, more lively than a lot of TNGs music, but that doesn't make it good.
I think most will agree that certain TOS episodes are crap.
Most, perhaps. But for every single ep that is traditionally thought of as bad by "most people", I have seen at least one person on this very board saying they really liked that ep. Since when does the majority liking or disliking something make it objectively good or bad, anyway?
That's because there are artistic elements that we can discuss (with varying degrees of sophistication). But this we're-all-equally-right-and-we-all-get-a-medal-just-for-showing-up crap defeats the whole purpose of dialogue.
Putting aside how far you overstated your case with that medal nonsense... Yes, there are artistic elements that we can discuss. But to what end? It's not like we can arrive at some sort of objective (I know, I'm using that word a lot, but it's the basis of my entire argument, so bear with me) truth about A being better than B.

Here: "Balance of Terror" and "In the Pale Moonlight." Ok... which one is better? Which one has better writing? Better music? Which one is more intense? Which one makes you think more? Which one has better acting?

Now, you can answer if you want, but you won't be "right" or "wrong." Neither will I, if I answer. It's completely subjective, in the end. THAT'S my point.
 
Saito S's quote:

"But for every single ep that is traditionally thought of as bad by "most people", I have seen at least one person on this very board saying they really liked that ep. Since when does the majority liking or disliking something make it objectively good or bad, anyway?"

Don't mention disliking the new movie, though. That'll get you flayed alive around here;)
 
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