Spoilers It's possible that the Cardies were UFP members or allies before the occupation of Bajor.

[XCV330]

The Federation



But if we only look at canon and according to what Gul Madred said in "Chain of Command", it seems that Cardassia wasn't the totalitarian state we know, during his youth.

Why else would he have any reason to scoff at what Jean Luc said?

having a democracy is a far cry from supporting Federation ideals. Rule by the mob can have its unpleasantness unless it is coupled other societal values and functions. From the bits of DS9 that showed what Cardassian culture and art was like, it seems they were very intrinsically statist and ultra authoritarian. They don't seem like a good fit for the UFP, regardless if they'd experimented with a republic or some kind of democracy

 

[dswynne1]

My opinion is this: the Federation and Cardassia Prime might have had contact during Pike's time. Pike himself could have had earned an award from the Cardassians without the Cardassians being a member of the Federation. And remember, the Prime Directive wasn't as strict during his time. Cardassia could easily be a peaceful planet, before it chose to become a fascist state that went on to conquer Bajor. 150 years is long enough for a culture to become a super-power (see: the United States).

 

[Timo]

Nevertheless, the name of the award does work with the idea that Pike meritoriously killed Cardassians instead - that's what militaries generally (or indeed exclusively) associate "meritorious" with today.

That, too, would nicely fit the setting: while the PD might have been lax and only on occasion required a Captain Tracey to commit suicide or whatnot, Kirk's orders often involved forcing alien scum to cooperate at gunpoint, or be nuked from orbit just to be sure.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Unimatrix Q]

having a democracy is a far cry from supporting Federation ideals. Rule by the mob can have its unpleasantness unless it is coupled other societal values and functions. From the bits of DS9 that showed what Cardassian culture and art was like, it seems they were very intrinsically statist and ultra authoritarian. They don't seem like a good fit for the UFP, regardless if they'd experimented with a republic or some kind of democracy

I could imagine that if Cardassia appears in SNW that there might be a reveal that Cardassia is or was a member of the Federation at least until the Federation - Klingon war, seen in Discovery.

Maybe the Klingons devastated the planet, which caused the famine and the eventual rise of anarchy that made the Federation abandon them. Similar to what happened on Turkana IV.

Which later lead to totalitarism and the border wars.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Service_Medal
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Border_Service_Medal

Here are two medals with "Mexican" in the name, yet Mexico was never part of the US.

Service medals can be named after regions and locations that are not part of the awarding government.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_of_Occupation_of_Germany_Medal named after Germany

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Service_Medal. China

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_Service_Medal. Vietnam

And there's the thread. The existence of a place name in a Starfleet award itself provides no basis for drawing a conclusion regarding whether those worlds are Federation members.

 

[Timo]

I could imagine that if Cardassia appears in SNW that there might be a reveal that Cardassia is or was a member of the Federation at least until the Federation - Klingon war, seen in Discovery.

One reason I'd like to steer clear of any Cardassian Connection is that those folks seem to be close buddies with folks I'd rather not have the UFP meet: the Ferengi (who get to establish bars on their occupation fortresses), the Yridians (who in "Birthright" and "The Circle" sound like locals but were believed extinct until Ransom re-found them possibly while Starfleet was rampaging through former Union space towards Cardassia), the Breen (who have territorial claims on the Union and sound like arch-enemies in the late seasons of DS9), even the Romulans (who might or might not share a border with the Union but have contributed to Terok Nor, either through cooperation or by falling victim to industrial espionage).

The less UFP contact in the direction of Cardassia, the less contact with these "folks we should not yet meet", in all likelihood.

We lack a mechanism for stopping Starfleet exploration or UFP expansion in that direction, though. Sure, the Klingons and Romulans on the other side would keep the Feds busy. But shouldn't that make them all the more interested about the other directions?

Maybe the Klingons devastated the planet, which caused the famine and the eventual rise of anarchy that made the Federation abandon them. Similar to what happened on Turkana IV.

Except it seems Turkana IV abandoned the Federation - which made the famine and anarchy go away.

Perhaps the ol' Hebitians or at least old Cardassians indeed were UFP members, which resulted in their planet suffering from constant hunger (because the Feds stopped the hunting of the tastybeest and banned the use of vole poison) and conflict (because members weren't allowed to retain their own fighting forces, and those of the UFP were busy elsewhere while the Breen raided Cardassian planets)?

Which later lead to totalitarism and the border wars.

No telling who launched those. The UFP tends to expand, too...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Unimatrix Q]

Except it seems Turkana IV abandoned the Federation - which made the famine and anarchy go away.

Yeah, i think it's possible that the Cardassians themselves may have asked the Federation to leave, similar to what happened on Tasha's homeworld.

Maybe it was impossible for the Federation to stabilize the planet. Especially if one keeps in mind that the Federation of the 23rd century isn't the post scarcity utopia known from TNG and beyond.

By the way, i'd love to finally see something about the Hebetians in one of the new shows

 

[Orphalesion]

having a democracy is a far cry from supporting Federation ideals. Rule by the mob can have its unpleasantness unless it is coupled other societal values and functions. From the bits of DS9 that showed what Cardassian culture and art was like, it seems they were very intrinsically statist and ultra authoritarian. They don't seem like a good fit for the UFP, regardless if they'd experimented with a republic or some kind of democracy

They still could have been allies, remember that in the 24th century the Federation saw nothing wrong with being allied to the Klingons.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Cardies is an insensitive racist term, and I’m offended by its use here.

Sorry, spoonheads.

It stands to reason from Bajor's proximity to Cardassia that it'd be their first target when they started conquering other worlds, so they probably were not expansionist before the Occupation. But also all the references to Cardassian art imply that for a long time they had a culture of authoritarianism and strict duty to the state. Otherwise we wouldn't have the 'Repetitive epic', free democracies to not revere books about seven generations of people who do their duty to the state. But we have seen references to both in Disco, so it stands to reason the Federation probably had a relationship of some sort with Cardassia and Bajor but no official ties.

 

[Tim Thomason]

The Cardassians may have been huge fascist wannabes for centuries, but were simply confined to their home system and perhaps a couple uninhabited neighbors due to technology. That even though they were sending out random explorers in the 22nd century (like Earth), they didn't have the capabilities to launch an invasion and occupation of an inhabited warp-capable, albeit feudalistic neighbor. Probably because of the crippled economy Cardassia seems to have had. Akorem Laan certainly knew who the Cardassians were, and was surprised that they were capable of occupying Bajor, all the while he was cruising around in an ancient solar-sail.

Another major difference that I see, between the 23rd century and the 24th century, is the issue of protection. I'm talking Prime Directive here. In the 23rd, you had Kirk giving away flintlocks, inflaming brush wars, and busting up Purges, because that was apparently acceptable. In the 24th, Picard would sip tea while planets burned and his officers were arrested on BS charges. This change in ideology (which, I know, I'm exaggerating) could be why perhaps the Federation was seen as a hurdle should Cardassians invade the peaceful Bajora, and once the Federation made its new beliefs known (around the time of the Tomed Incident?), the Cardassian Union finally felt able to form their own interstellar empire without pushback.

 

[publiusr]

By the way, i'd love to finally see something about the Hebetians in one of the new shows

Now I thought Cardassia was discovered post TMP era. They almost seem Delta Quadrant baddies in some way. FASA for a long time talked about new threats coreward and spinward (Ferengi?)

 

[Unimatrix Q]

Now I thought Cardassia was discovered post TMP era. They almost seem Delta Quadrant baddies in some way. FASA for a long time talked about new threats coreward and spinward (Ferengi?)

They must have been discovered by the Federation at least three or four decades before TMP at the latest, as seen by the cardassian drink served on Earth in JJTrek and Pike getting a cardassian award some time before 2257.

 

[Orphalesion]

It stands to reason from Bajor's proximity to Cardassia that it'd be their first target when they started conquering other worlds, so they probably were not expansionist before the Occupation. But also all the references to Cardassian art imply that for a long time they had a culture of authoritarianism and strict duty to the state. Otherwise we wouldn't have the 'Repetitive epic', free democracies to not revere books about seven generations of people who do their duty to the state. But we have seen references to both in Disco, so it stands to reason the Federation probably had a relationship of some sort with Cardassia and Bajor but no official ties.

But again, the Federation saw nothing wrong about being allied to the Klingons, who also clash with the Federation philosophy in many ways. So I don't see anything in the way of a friendly or neutral relationship between the Federation and the Cardassian Union before the occupation of Bajor.
Plus, authoritarian regimes can transform a culture very quickly, the Repetitive Epics were likely state-sanctioned literature that described what the government saw as an ideal that never quite existed.

 

[Unimatrix Q]

But again, the Federation saw nothing wrong about being allied to the Klingons, who also clash with the Federation philosophy in many ways. So I don't see anything in the way of a friendly or neutral relationship between the Federation and the Cardassian Union before the occupation of Bajor.
Plus, authoritarian regimes can transform a culture very quickly, the Repetitive Epics were likely state-sanctioned literature that described what the government saw as an ideal that never quite existed.

These are really good points. Weren't the Cardassians already based on Orwell's 1984, according to the writers?

 

[Orphalesion]

These are really good points. Weren't the Cardassians already based on Orwell's 1984, according to the writers?

Quite possible, but in the end 1984 was just directly inspired by real events in Nazi Germany and Stalin's Soviet Union. In history all authoritarian regimes (no matter if right or left leaning) have used art, literature, music, movies and such as a tool to indoctrinate their people. They pick their artists and tell them what to write or create. Then they ban everything they deem counter to their ideology and soon the people have not much choice in what to read or watch.
If you read up accounts of people who lived through dictatorships it's quite scary how quickly many individuals get swept up into the new culture and ideology the government endorses, children especially, since they get indoctrinated at a time when their minds are most receptive to it. I can recall some accounts of people who were shocked at how fanatical children they knew, or even their own, had become in just a few years.
How is a young Cardassian supposed to know how bad and boring a Repetitive Epic probably is, if they have nothing to compare it to?

 

[JirinPanthosa]

But again, the Federation saw nothing wrong about being allied to the Klingons, who also clash with the Federation philosophy in many ways. So I don't see anything in the way of a friendly or neutral relationship between the Federation and the Cardassian Union before the occupation of Bajor.
Plus, authoritarian regimes can transform a culture very quickly, the Repetitive Epics were likely state-sanctioned literature that described what the government saw as an ideal that never quite existed.

It was pretty implied those were classic literature though, not recent literature. And Weyoun seemed totally convinced the Cardassians were hardwired to defer to authority. All that put together points to a society that was authoritarian for a long time.

 

[Shawnster]

Nevertheless, the name of the award does work with the idea that Pike meritoriously killed Cardassians instead - that's what militaries generally (or indeed exclusively) associate "meritorious" with today

Or he meritoriously served in a Starfleet mission that saved Cardassians from a foreign enemy or, perhaps some biological or chemical disaster. You know, since Starfleet isn't (exclusively) a military organization.

Even today there are military service medals awarded for non combat missions.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antarctica_Service_Medal

 

[CorporalCaptain]

An alliance by treaty is one thing, but the Klingons were never Federation members, at least through the end of the TNG era. Canonically, according to Daniels in "Azati Prime," the Klingons don't join the Federation until the 26th century, but that's just in one or more possible timelines, and we know basically nothing of Klingon politics then.

 

[Timo]

In the aftermath of "Samaritan Snare", we have to accept that "joining" the UFP does not refer exclusively to becoming a member. Wesley would need to be interpreted as having spoken of "joining the cause" or forming an alliance. In contrast, Daniels is very explicitly speaking of "the Federation", and stating that the listed cultures are "unified"; it takes more work to interpret this as referring to a loose alliance wherein the listed cultures merely boost the separate UFP with their presence.

"Samaritan Snare" is interesting for all the reasons the writers never intended. Why does Wesley start babbling about Klingons when Picard mentions Starbase Earhart? And why does Picard's face light up when Wesley does so?

Because Klingons and Earhart are somehow related, and Picard appreciates that Wesley knows of this history, and of history in general?

Or merely because the alliance with Klingons is a watershed Wesley knows is temporally proximal to Picard's Academy years, and Picard doubly appreciates Wesley knowing his history and Picard's?

Generally, if I were to talk to my son about my first car and he asked "Was this before the war, Dad?", my face would not light up...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[MAGolding]

In the aftermath of "Samaritan Snare", we have to accept that "joining" the UFP does not refer exclusively to becoming a member. Wesley would need to be interpreted as having spoken of "joining the cause" or forming an alliance. In contrast, Daniels is very explicitly speaking of "the Federation", and stating that the listed cultures are "unified"; it takes more work to interpret this as referring to a loose alliance wherein the listed cultures merely boost the separate UFP with their presence.

"Samaritan Snare" is interesting for all the reasons the writers never intended. Why does Wesley start babbling about Klingons when Picard mentions Starbase Earhart? And why does Picard's face light up when Wesley does so?

Because Klingons and Earhart are somehow related, and Picard appreciates that Wesley knows of this history, and of history in general?

Or merely because the alliance with Klingons is a watershed Wesley knows is temporally proximal to Picard's Academy years, and Picard doubly appreciates Wesley knowing his history and Picard's?

Generally, if I were to talk to my son about my first car and he asked "Was this before the war, Dad?", my face would not light up...

Timo Saloniemi

Or maybe the Klingon realm splintered tinto several realms, and one of the minor Klingon states joined the Federation for a while, and that is what Wesley was talking about.