Italian PM Berlusconi tells Obama he's being persecuted

[iguana_tonante]

What's confusing to me is why in a Parliamentary system of government he is permitted to go on? Unlike here in the US where it takes an overwhelming majority of the congress to boot out the President in Italy his party can give him the boot - correct?

It's a bit more complicated. His government can be ousted by a vote of no-confidence by the Parliament, but his coalition holds a majority of seats, so no luck with that. And his coalition owns its existence to him, so they can't simply oust him (they could not survive without the support of his money and tv channels).

Shit the man is accused of having sexual orgies with minors while on the job - what more will it take?

Well, the charges are actually buying sex from a minor, which is a crime. She was above the age of consent, tho.

But his party is basically just a Berlusconi election club. Sadly, most parties in Italy seem to be in a sorry state, without a real base.

It's... complicated. Italians as a general rule are heavily involved in politics. A voter turnout under 80% is considered unsatisfactory here. Right now, there is a deep dissatisfaction with politics, but parties still enjoy a strong base, even if just from the us-vs-them mentality. The problem is one of leadership: you have either ideologically-strong "real" parties with an incredibly dull leadership (e.g. Democratic Party), or fast-and-loose "movements" with a charismatic leadership (Berlusconi's People of Freedom, but also Di Pietro's Italy of Values). At the moment, you have more or less 3 "coalitions": Right-wing, Centrist, Left-wing. None of them enjoy a majority of the country, and the Right-wing can govern due to the idiosyncrasies of the electoral law. On the other hand, an alliance between Centrists and Left-wingers is simply doomed to fail (they tried: didn't work and gave a big boost to Berlusconi).

Yea, yea, - were not Italy but I'm really shocked that the Italian public after this tirade at an economic summit for gods sake isn't demanding his immediate removal from office.

We are. Well, at least many of us (arguably, a majority, but that's complicated), and we have been demanding it for a long time. But thanks to a stupid electoral law, Berlusconi still enjoy the confidence of a majority in Parliament, and that's all that matters.

Berlusconi's been doing shit like this for years. He's a teflon President(e del Consiglio). Right now is actually the weakest he's ever looked. Even then, his conservative coalition owes their success to him. It could very well be suicide to force him out and then lose the election.

This is the point. His coalition only survives as long as he's in charge, and they are too keep on keeping their seats to put that in danger.

Maybe this will be the hair that breaks the camel's back, maybe it won't.

It won't. It's been already swept under the rug by his media, if even mentioned at all. His power over information is almost unthinkable. After a big loss during some local elections, Berlusconi granted himself a 30 min address to the public on national and private tv channels to support his candidates at the run-off. It was deemed a violation of "equal time law" during political campaigns, and the tv were fined 2 million Euros, but they simply paid the fine.

Trying to explain Italian politics gives me a headache.

 

[Count Zero]

Maybe this will be the hair that breaks the camel's back, maybe it won't.

It won't. It's been already swept under the rug by his media, if even mentioned at all. His power over information is almost unthinkable. After a big loss during some local elections, Berlusconi granted himself a 30 min address to the public on national and private tv channels to support his candidates at the run-off. It was deemed a violation of "equal time law" during political campaigns, and the tv were fined 2 million Euros, but they simply paid the fine.

That sounds pretty bad. Damn. I forgot he also sort of controls RAI. Still, it is rather disturbing that not even such an open breach of laws and political etiquette would give his supporters pause. But I suppose they buy into this whole 'left dictatorship' narrative. I also read how Berlusconi argued that if people voted left in the communal elections in Milano, it would become a an "islamic city full of gypsies". He sounds like his own parody. I have a hard time comprehending that people really fall for this.

 

[Holdfast]

Y'know, on one level, Berlusconi is clearly an awful person, and an awful leader for a major European country.

On another level, he's awesomely hilarious.

I know; he's brilliant fun. The world needs at least a few nutty leaders at any given time; it keeps politics interesting.

 

[Marc]

Though one government minister has had enough of Berlusconi's behaviour and quit.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...-over-berlusconi/story-fn3dxity-1226064798013

Might have been a bit more meaningful if her party withdrew from the coalition.

 

[iBender]

Berlusconi's ridiculously buffoonish.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I think the nickname "Burlesque-oni" would be appropriate.

Then again, I'm sure someone in Italy has already beat me to it.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Well, I'm quite happy today, because in the last turn of local elections, Berlusconi's right-wing coalition suffered a resounding defeat, losing the mayoral election on 4 key cities: Milan, Turin, Naples and Bologna.

The last three results were more or less expected (Turin and Bologna went to the left-wing at the first turn, while Naples did at the run-off, but with a shocking 65%). Milan, on the other hand, was almost unthinkable, as the business capital of Italy and the seat of Berlusconi power base.

Now, local elections do not always translate to national ballots, and since he still enjoy the confidence of Parliament, there is no way to oust him. But it's a very encouraging start, and make me think that maybe, maybe most people got enough of his bullshit and are turning against him. A man can dream.

BBC News - Silvio Berlusconi loses Milan and Naples in local polls.

The run-off polls are seen as a key test of Mr Berlusconi's popularity, as he faces multiple corruption trials and sex scandals.


Centre-left candidate Giuliano Pisapia won in Milan with about 55% of the vote over Mayor Letizia Moratti.


Milan, Mr Berlusconi's power base, has been run by conservatives for 18 years. The city, Italy's financial capital, is Mr Berlusconi's birthplace and where he got his start in business and politics.

 

[Count Zero]

I read about this earlier and I'm glad his retarded scare tactics didn't pay off in Milan. He's already shrugged the defeat in Milan off as 'not important' or something like that but I hope it's the beginning of the end for him.

 

[iguana_tonante]

I've seen so many "beginnings of the end" for Berlusconi that I'm painfully cautious in invoking it. But as I said, a man can dream.

 

[TheGodBen]

It's annoying how last week he framed the election in Milan as a referendum on his leadership (according to the BBC) yet today he has shrugged it off. But I guess that's what governments do, they ignore any drubbing they get in local elections and hold on to power for as long as they can, there's no reason to expect that Berlusconi would act any differently.

But maybe now he will get the message and try to change his image. Perhaps he'll donate all his money to the poor, give up his bunga-bunga parties, find God and marry a chaste former-nun with A-cups. And maybe he'll learn to fly as well.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

The last three results were more or less expected (Turin and Bologna went to the left-wing at the first turn, while Naples did at the run-off, but with a shocking 65%). Milan, on the other hand, was almost unthinkable, as the business capital of Italy and the seat of Berlusconi power base.

I was wondering that. I tend to think of the south as more conservative because it's more rural and less urbanized/industrialized, but, then again, there's also Lega Nord. So I realize I don't actually know much about any geographic divide for Italian politics. Is there really any noticeable political divides that can be seen based on geography like there is in the United States or is support for various parties sorta divided through out? Is Milano actually conservative or is it just because Berlusconi is Milanese?

Anyway, congrats on the victories today. You're from Milano, right?

 

[DarthTom]

I've seen so many "beginnings of the end" for Berlusconi that I'm painfully cautious in invoking it. But as I said, a man can dream.

For all Italians sake I hope that's true. What Berlusconi did as head of state with Obama last week had to be embarrassment for Italians.

edited to add: As an American who was embarrassed by George W. Bush on many occasions, notably his back rubbing incident with Angela Merkel, I can sympathize.

 

[Count Zero]

It seems that there are probably a lot more heads of state/government that say and do a lot more embarrassing things than Bush or Berlusconi.
Yesterday I read about an incident which happened in November. The German Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle, who is openly gay, and his Polish colleague, Radek Sikorski, visited the Belarussian President Lukashenko, Europe's only remaining dictator. During their talks with him they also expressed concern about the treatment of minorities there, which was something quite important to Sikorski because there's a Polish minority in the country. However, Lukashenko took that to mean LGBT people and launched into a diatribe about how he couldn't understand how two men could live together and that gays should be sent to state farms to work there but that he had nothing against lesbians.
When this was translated to them, the two Foreign Ministers exchanged glances of disbelief and shook their heads. (Can you say awkward?) Then they emphasised that human rights should also apply in Belarus.

This was only reported at the end of February in a Polish newspaper and then also in Belarus. So Lukashenko felt the need to justify his prosition. In a TV interview he said that they lived in a democratic society and that he had only advised Westerwelle to live "normally" and that such things might be possible in Germany or even Poland (congratulations for making your country sound like a really backward place) but not in Belarus.

It would be hilarious if it didn't mean the discrimination of gays and if these statements didn't come from a dictator who's crapping all over human rights every day.

In summary: it could be a lot worse than your country's government making weird remarks about an alleged conspiracy of left-wing judges to Obama.

 

[DarthTom]

In summary: it could be a lot worse than your country's government making weird remarks about an alleged conspiracy of left-wing judges to Obama.

Eastern Europeans and the Russians get a lot of slack for their backwards thinking. 50 years of communist role had them all fucked up.

 

[Count Zero]

I don't think that prejudice against gays has anything to do with their Communist/Socialist past, but with the predominance of the Catholic and Orthodox Church that's very strong in some countries (Poland, Russia and Belarus) and with a general chauvinism. I might be wrong about this but it seems to me that, with the exception of Poland, most former Warsaw Pact states are fairly tolerant in that regard. And I think in Poland the situation is also improving.
In China it doesn't seem to be much of a problem, either, or else Westerwelle wouldn't have brought his husband along for the trip there.

Anyway, this incident didn't really help Lukashenko with being taken more seriously. It wasn't even really reported on here because everyone thinks he's crazy, anyway.

 

[DarthTom]

I don't think that prejudice against gays has anything to do with their Communist/Socialist past, but with the predominance of the Catholic and Orthodox Church that's very strong in some countries (Poland, Russia and Belarus) and with a general chauvinism. I might be wrong about this but it seems to me that, with the exception of Poland, most former Warsaw Pact states are fairly tolerant in that regard. And I think in Poland the situation is also improving.
In China it doesn't seem to be much of a problem, either, or else Westerwelle wouldn't have brought his his husband along for the trip there.

Anyway, this incident didn't really help Lukashenko with being taken more seriously. It wasn't even really reported on here because everyone thinks he's crazy, anyway.

I was trying to be funny and failed at it. In any case in other Berlusconi news, Huffington Post ran an amusing story on how much foundation and make-up Berlusconi wears:

Huffington

It's no secret that Silvio Berlusconi has his fair share of lady problems, as Ariel Levy reported in a recent New Yorker profile on the politician. But the reporter also revealed that the Italian Prime Minister uses his fair share of ladies' beauty products, specifically foundation (duh) and guyliner (interesting!). Quoth Levy:

 

[iguana_tonante]

I was wondering that. I tend to think of the south as more conservative because it's more rural and less urbanized/industrialized, but, then again, there's also Lega Nord. So I realize I don't actually know much about any geographic divide for Italian politics. Is there really any noticeable political divides that can be seen based on geography like there is in the United States or is support for various parties sorta divided through out?

There is a divide, but as with many Italian things, it's not that simple. In general terms, as with most western nations, cities tend to vote progressive, and rural areas tend to vote conservative. The trick is that there are places where the "countryside" is actually rife with small- and medium-sized business and industries, which fuzzes the issue considerably.

Geographically speaking: the North is inextricably mixed between libertarian (socially more or less liberal, free-market economy), and unionist (socially uninterested, geared towards workers' rights). There is also a strong anti-government and anti-immigration sentiment, which is neither classically right- or left-wing (the Lega Nord). The Centre regions is almost universally social-democratic (socially liberal, mixed economy). The South is more classical conservative (socially conservative, state-driven economy), but with more than a few left-wing strongholds (Apulia, Basilicata).

So... it's complicated.

Is Milano actually conservative or is it just because Berlusconi is Milanese?

It's not just that he is Milanese, the fact is he intercepted a large percentage of Milanese voters, the small-to-large business who were very dissatisfied with politics, taxes, bureaucracy and who feared the rise of "communism". On the other hand, he had the support of a lot of civic, financial, religious, even sport organizations, which made him a very popular figure in some circles. Generally speaking, people are more or less evenly split between left-wing and right-wing, but his power (and money) shifted the game for the last 15 years.

 

[DarthTom]

Generally speaking, people are more or less evenly split between left-wing and right-wing, but his power (and money) shifted the game for the last 15 years.

When one is worth over $9 billion and owns three national TV stations that no doubt wields a lot of influence and power.

Question: how 'even handed,' and objective are his TV channels in reporting the news related to him?

It's akin to Rupert Murdoch running for POTUS here - winning - and then having the power to report on himself to the masses.

 

[iguana_tonante]

When one is worth over $9 billion and owns three national TV stations that no doubt wields a lot of influence and power.

Question: how 'even handed,' and objective are his TV channels in reporting the news related to him?

It's akin to Rupert Murdoch running for POTUS here - winning - and then having the power to report on himself to the masses.

Actually, it's probably worse. Berlusconi's tv stations are completely controlled by him (via trusted lieutenants and henchmen). Information is heavily slanted towards him, politically and economically.

There are 7 main national tv channels in Italy (as opposed to satellite television, which is popular but non so much for newscasts). The situation somehow changed recently with the switch to digital television, but they are still the most viewed by most people.

Of those, 3 are state channels (RAI), 3 are Berlusconi's (MEDIASET), and 1 is independent (LA7). The state channels are "appointed" politically: 1 to the Right (RAI-1), 1 to the Centre (RAI-2), 1 to the Left (RAI-3). Berlusconi's party controls RAI-1 and RAI-2, in addition to the three MEDIASET channels personally owned by him. Which means that he controls 5 channels out of 7, i.e. more than 70% of tv information. In particular, RETE4 and RAI-1 are particularly shameless in their slavish obedience to his party (think FOX NEWS). "Neutral" (actually, anti-Berlusconi) information is limited to RAI-3 and LA7.

The miracle is that, with that level of control of information, not everybody in Italy is a mindless servant of him, but there is actually a limited but fierce resistance and opposition.

 

[Count Zero]

In any case in other Berlusconi news, Huffington Post ran an amusing story on how much foundation and make-up Berlusconi wears:

Huffington

It's no secret that Silvio Berlusconi has his fair share of lady problems, as Ariel Levy reported in a recent New Yorker profile on the politician. But the reporter also revealed that the Italian Prime Minister uses his fair share of ladies' beauty products, specifically foundation (duh) and guyliner (interesting!). Quoth Levy:

If I remember correctly, Berlusconi once said he would also get it on with a guy if one seduced him. Well, at least he didn't say that in front of Westerwelle.