It seems there is a reason for the visual reboot and the producers aren't being honest about it.

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Discovery' started by Smoked Salmon, Apr 15, 2018.

  1. lawman

    lawman Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2007
    Yes, they posted that. I don't doubt that they were told to make changes. I'm saying that their statements about the reasons for those changes were speculative, and, more importantly, wrong.

    Schneider himself said as much in the later post, when he acknowledged that he knows nothing about copyright law nor any other legal issues, and attributed the mandated changes more broadly (and still just as speculatively) to "studio politics, contracts... greed and control," possibly even the dictates of just "one person."

    Good link; that site explains the relevant law fairly succinctly and clearly. Yes, the "25% rule" as described by Schneider is erroneous. (I don't know about it being "typical" as he puts it, or "one that people often cite"; I can only say that I have genuinely never heard it before. And we live in the age of the Internet, so anyone working in a creative profession who hears such a thing, which sounds obviously ridiculous on its face, can check it just as quickly and easily as you did and find more reliable information.)

    Just as importantly, though, even if such a standard existed it wouldn't matter here, because there is no other party who could have any legal claim for infringement, as no one else owns any of the relevant IP. Eaves's musings about it being divided up after Enterprise are also speculative, and also wrong. CBS is sole owner of all of the Star Trek IP. If it weren't it definitely wouldn't be plastering claims that it is on every Trek-related product in sight.

    That's a damn good question. I would love to know the answer.

    As it stands, all we know is that someone told them to make some changes. We don't know who or why. We don't know when the "25%" misunderstanding got into the mix. We don't know who approved the final design, at what stage, nor why additional last-minute changes (e.g., the nacelle struts) were apparently made even after the approved design had been passed along to the FX people. None of it really makes any sense. (And that's not even getting into the issues of earlier designs... like the D7 snafu, where the writers and the designers clearly had different ideas, agendas, and/or instructions.)

    We don't really have enough behind-the-scenes information even to speculate sensibly about these things. Hell, it seems clear at this point (just as it did from the earlier crossed wires about whether or not elements from the films could be used) that even the actual people working on the show don't have a clear understanding of what they are and aren't allowed to use and why, never mind the viewers. All we can say with any confidence is what the reasons aren't, which is to say, mandated by legal requirements.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018
    ITDUDE, INACTIVERedDwarf and jaime like this.
  2. jaime

    jaime Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2013
    Location:
    London
    Sounds like confusion to me. Legal probably thought JJ had the rights, or they thought of the movie enterprise, and didn’t realise it was the sixties version. Yes...people should know better, and I assuming a lot, but it makes more sense than a show which is full of TV series design elements (the Starfleet badge alone, characters like Sarek and Mudd, the Romulan Empire insignia, the copyright contentious Tribble....) not being able to use the TOS enterprise. That or it’s buck passing, like we see with the Klingon make up (was catching up with s11 of face off last night, and a contestant used the exact same physiological rationale behind the Klingon design. I laughed.) to try to calm the fan discussions.
    If nothing else, DSC could afford to license the ship from the smithsonian, Disney, my uncle Boz, whoever owns it, with their budget.
    It’s a fudge.
     
  3. jaime

    jaime Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2013
    Location:
    London
    In fact, having thought...it’s more likely the tenth-five percent is so they can sell merchandising rights to the new ship as a new ship. If they just used the old ship, every company who already has the license can just bang out a product to cash in on the DSC attraction. Like the DSC ships over in the starship collection being a separate set and therefore probably a separate license (ditto for STOs DSC lockbox ships) this is all about having companies and fans pay again for something by changing it up. That’s my theory on it now. Moolah.
     
    lawman, Xerxus and ITDUDE like this.
  4. Rahul

    Rahul Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2014
    The thing is: We HAVE a situation here. We just don't know what the situation actually is. But whatever it is, it's not a small detail - it's impacting the design and aesthetics of the new show in to massive degree.

    The most likely explanation is still that they want to sell their "Enterprise" version under the "Discovery" licenses, and had to make a few bigger changes on it for that. This might not actually be such a legal clusterfuck as it appears to be, and just some bean counters chiming in.

    Whatever it is, though: There is smoke. No fire visible yet. But a lot of smoke.
    And whatever the ultimate reason for these internal directives is, it doesn't bode well with a good production environment. Either it's because they make fucking merchandise a higher priority than producing coherent Star Trek. Or because there IS a serious copyright problem plaguing the Star Trek IP.

    Whatever it is: It looks like a horrible shitshow behind the scenes. And at the same time explains so much that is wrong with the production at this point. Where their priorities lie. And that makes for a toxic relationship with fandom. The last thing any franchise needs....

    That's why I think someone needs to come forward and clear the situation up a little - even if it's only miniscule.
     
    lawman, ITDUDE, Nightowl1701 and 2 others like this.
  5. INACTIVERedDwarf

    INACTIVERedDwarf Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2017
    Jeez, what a mess.

    Why does Trek always get mishandled?
     
    ITDUDE likes this.
  6. Rahul

    Rahul Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2014
    Everything gets mishandled. Constantly. Trek had a remarkably long period where it wasn't mishandled. But in the entertainment industry, that was the outlier, not the other way 'round.
     
    ITDUDE and INACTIVERedDwarf like this.
  7. INACTIVERedDwarf

    INACTIVERedDwarf Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2017
    Thats some interesting insight

    Here is what someone on io9's comment section speculated:

    Although CBS has the rights to TOS and the other shows, I wonder if Paramount currently has the right to require changes for any new material set in the TOS era, since that’s when the Kelvin movies are set? That would also explain why TOS-style uniforms Fuller wanted were rejected, since the Kelvin movies already use something similar.

    It sounds like a lot of the design and story decisions in Discovery involved workarounds with the Paramount rights. One of the Disco writers also said that they can’t use anything from any of the movies beyond minor references—including the original TOS and TNG movies due to Paramount’s rights—which might explain why it’s set pre-TOS. The movie era would be off-limits, and it would probably be difficult to do a post-Voyager show if they have to ignore the destruction of Romulus.

    When they split in 06, CBS was probably content to let Paramount take the reins, since Enterprise petered out and CBS kept the merchandising rights and the back catalog. They could sit back and make money while letting Paramount take all the risks for a while.​
     
    Xerxus and ITDUDE like this.
  8. Maurice

    Maurice Maurice, the ATARI CX5200 Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Location:
    One ferry ride from Starfleet HQ
    My guess is it's more like "don't make it look too much like the movies because we don't want people to assume they are all connected."
     
    Kitty Worrier, Nerys Myk, drt and 5 others like this.
  9. lab rat

    lab rat Lieutenant Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2017
    While at first this may appear to be a mess it can easily be explained with one word.
    Mushrooms!
    The whole production team was blitzed out and trippin balz on A++ Shrooms.
     
    lawman and ITDUDE like this.
  10. cooleddie74

    cooleddie74 Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2001
    Location:
    The Warped Sector of the Demented Quadrant
    F'ing Temporal Cold War.™

    :shifty:
     
  11. Refuge

    Refuge Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2016
    Serves them right for doing a prequel that wanted to suck on the teet of the original but just wasn't allowed to pull it off. NOW if they had gone post Voyager...
     
    PhotoBoy, Ronald Held, ITDUDE and 2 others like this.
  12. Rahul

    Rahul Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2014
    Jesus, NO! The mushrooms are there for instantanious travel through the galaxy and time travel! Don't you get it?
     
  13. Takeru

    Takeru Space Police Premium Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2007
    Location:
    Germany, EU, Earth
    That describes the vast majority of tv shows and movies behind the scenes.
     
    JoeP likes this.
  14. Krandor

    Krandor Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Fans would still have complained about tons of canon violations.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018
    XCV330, Xerxus, ITDUDE and 2 others like this.
  15. Tuskin38

    Tuskin38 Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2011
    Nope
     
    Xerxus and JoeP like this.
  16. Tuskin38

    Tuskin38 Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2011
    People still would have hated it
     
    Xerxus, ITDUDE, JoeP and 3 others like this.
  17. Lord Garth

    Lord Garth Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    May 7, 2011
    Location:
    Aug 10, 1999
    That's something I hadn't thought of.

    And if they retroactively said none of the three Kelvin films had any connection to the Prime Timeline, then someone in Legal would throw a fit because they'd insist Spock Prime is the same Spock we saw from "The Cage" to "Unification". And possibly sue over it.

    It's like Star Trek is the victim of a bad breakup. Another reason why they should've outright gone with a Third Timeline. You'd have Old Trek, Paramount Trek, and CBS Trek. The End.
     
    RedAlert, ITDUDE and INACTIVERedDwarf like this.
  18. BillJ

    BillJ History's Greatest Monster Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2001
    Location:
    Covington, Ky. USA
    I can't imagine it would be any more difficult than having to avoid the Romulans entirely since they weren't seen for a century prior to "Balance of Terror".
     
    Longinus likes this.
  19. Vger23

    Vger23 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2014
    Location:
    New England
    Worse, because now you have to hold up to 750 hours of what came before, as opposed to 150ish (ENT and TOS).

    And now the "fan expectations" would be that everything is LCARS aesthetics, and that we need to hear about what happened with every single Berman-era character (for all those complaining that it's fanwanky that we see Sarek and hear about Spock, etc).

    So, there would be just as much hatred and venom....just from different people and for different reasons.

    That's why I'm at the point now where I just want them to do their thing. You're going to piss people off no matter what, because the fanbase is what it is. So just do it and let the chips fall where they may.
     
    MakeshiftPython, XCV330 and ITDUDE like this.
  20. Krandor

    Krandor Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Exactly. The complaints we would hear would almost wound like something out of the Shatner SNL skit. "In voyager season 4 episode 39, voyager was able to do xyz without any trouble. this new show is 100 years after that so they should have been able to do the same thing and should have had it in their data banks that it was possible so this whole episode never should have even been a conflict or problem for the crew". type stuff.

    It is almost a lose-lose for the writers.
     
    JoeP and Vger23 like this.