Issues with Voyager
- Thread starter jimbtnp2
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"The weak will perish." Gawd that sounds really threatening.
And how can you can create real drama with 8472...by having them take the form of Boothby (another TNG person)? or by swimming in this fluidic space stuff, which is just yet another anamoly in a show with far too many spacial anamolies and not enough substance.
And at least with every other adversary, I learned what they are after. What are these CGI pieces of crap after anyway that would be dramatically or viscerally interesting to our crew?
And how can you can create real drama with 8472...by having them take the form of Boothby (another TNG person)? or by swimming in this fluidic space stuff, which is just yet another anamoly in a show with far too many spacial anamolies and not enough substance.
And at least with every other adversary, I learned what they are after. What are these CGI pieces of crap after anyway that would be dramatically or viscerally interesting to our crew?
I watched the episode with friends. One of them was chanting abotu Jeri, "what a talented actress, a very talented actress?" and another upon seeing the 8472 gufaws quite incredulously "Holy shit, it's a shadow."
I've written a lot of fanfiction hinged on species 8472's choice of using Boothby as the mouthpiece of the 8472 "leader" and that that is obviously that Boothby is the Secret king of the Federation. True story.
YYZ, "another anamoly [sic] in a show with far too many spacial anamolies [sic] and not enough substance" and "CGI pieces of crap," etc. -- it is a fact that one 8472 appeared as Boothby, but the rest of your post is your view, which I didn't come away with. I thought Species 8472 were formidable and interesting.
And if one of them was rooted down and stuck like a pig by a couple hillbilly Hirogen I'd agree with you.
Voyager made a good bad guy and then began pulling it's teeth out.
Voyager made a good bad guy and then began pulling it's teeth out.
Ok. they may be formidable.. I mean they were designed to be a new foe. They may be interesting, as they are not a typical bumpy forehead alien... but there is nothing else, nothing substantial about them, nothing dramatically interesting, nothing about their "society" that would make us look in some way at our own, and there is certainly no character to these things, no character dynamics
They were just a foe for foe's sake, a ratings ploy so that "Scorpion" could be produced
I disagree. They were never intended to remain Voyager's enemy; the Borg were the enemy. Voyager got caught on the wrong side of that argument.
Voyager barely had the consistency to reuse much any bad guys after they left kazon space. Always traveling forward at warp speed will do that. But, what was it? "Your universe will be purged." maybe that was hyperbola and maybe they were defending themselves against the Borg and Borg allies but that had to be a disproportionate reaction to the initial Borg Probe into Fluidic Space when you consider that the Borg can't even barely scratch their ships, that the most diabolical Borg Attack on these buggers would have been no more noticeable than trespassing. Effectively murdering everyone because we exist.
Victims of their own hype.
You do understand that siding with species 8472 in the initial argument that Janeway walked into would have been submitting to execution because of crime committed by the Borg? Janeway was on the right side of the argument if she wanted to live. Of course any Vorlon knows that there are three sides to any argument.
Victims of their own hype.
You do understand that siding with species 8472 in the initial argument that Janeway walked into would have been submitting to execution because of crime committed by the Borg? Janeway was on the right side of the argument if she wanted to live. Of course any Vorlon knows that there are three sides to any argument.
Species 8472 were designed as being foes of the Borg -- and they were on the defensive. It didn't appear as though 8472 were inherently warlike; and they were not Voyager's natural enemies -- only by unfortunate circumstance. Like humans, 8472 could wage war; but Voyager had more in common with 8472 than the Borg. I thought they were quite interesting, and I'm glad that dynamic was added to the Borg conflict.
Guy Gardener, Janeway took the only option open to her; but it was clear the Borg were the aggressors in that situation. And it was more than just a probe; the Borg's mission is always to assimilate everything they have an interest in, and the conflict was ongoing before Voyager arrived.
They tried making new enemies and species for VOY, but the viewers never gave them a chance. All the time it was always "We don't want new bad guys, we want Klingons/Romulans/Cardassians!" no matter what they did or what they tried.
They make 8472, the reaction was "WTF They made the Borg not invincible anymore WHAT A RIP!".
They just couldn't win.
They make 8472, the reaction was "WTF They made the Borg not invincible anymore WHAT A RIP!".
They just couldn't win.
AT best, 8472, like most VOY villains, is good for one or two appearances, then after that, they lose something
It's just Guy, 
The Borg Assimilate a culture by sending in one Cube. I call that a probe. Especially if they can't assimilate or kill or scratch their opponents in even the smallest quantity before the Borg expedition is annihilated.
It doesn't matter who starts a fight. It matters who finishes it. The Borg were incapable if admitting defeat no matter what Guinin said about how man would one day be capable of communicating on their level, and Species 8472 didn't have to stop because there was no threat of loss in the slightest. They were in no danger whatsoever, so really they were fucking about because the Borg were so presumptuous to even think about taking them on... I remember a TNG where Worf sneers about an opponent targeting Enterprise with "Lasers" which were incapable of even piercing their navigation deflectors.
But after murdering billions of drones who fought on despite the hopelessness of the occasion, species 8472 turned tide at the first bloody nose. That's kind of cowardly really? Even if their intellectual investment into the destruction of life in our universe was only perched on a whim that it didn't really matter if they were there killing or not.I mean if cockroaches started making tools and weapons, it would scare the hell out of me even though the bug spray still works, but really it would just make me spray harder.
The Borg Assimilate a culture by sending in one Cube. I call that a probe. Especially if they can't assimilate or kill or scratch their opponents in even the smallest quantity before the Borg expedition is annihilated.
And that's just the outcome of one sortie, in a war which had been going on for months. The complete casualties for the Borg after this conflict wound down would have been gigantic even after applying the most conservative multipliers to the figures above.
It doesn't matter who starts a fight. It matters who finishes it. The Borg were incapable if admitting defeat no matter what Guinin said about how man would one day be capable of communicating on their level, and Species 8472 didn't have to stop because there was no threat of loss in the slightest. They were in no danger whatsoever, so really they were fucking about because the Borg were so presumptuous to even think about taking them on... I remember a TNG where Worf sneers about an opponent targeting Enterprise with "Lasers" which were incapable of even piercing their navigation deflectors.
But after murdering billions of drones who fought on despite the hopelessness of the occasion, species 8472 turned tide at the first bloody nose. That's kind of cowardly really? Even if their intellectual investment into the destruction of life in our universe was only perched on a whim that it didn't really matter if they were there killing or not.I mean if cockroaches started making tools and weapons, it would scare the hell out of me even though the bug spray still works, but really it would just make me spray harder.
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What they leave behind is space, which is a function of the journey. Voyager wasn't trying to hold down any real estate there like the locals do.
Guy, the Borg worship perfection, and 8472 was it. Perfection was worth the price. 8472 on the other hand, seemed thoughtful in their dealings on human terms; plus they are telepathic and would know the collective's plans. Their behavior seems logical to me under the circumstances.
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That's the thing. They could never afford to make some big Space Empire enemy for VOY like the Dominion for DS9, because VOY had no allies or support of their own. If they show had changed premises from them getting home to them getting dragged into some DeltaQuadrant politics and their own groups, then they'd have had an excuse to create some big Empire as the lasting enemy.
And they couldn't have there be one enemy chasing them through the entire galaxy like the Cylons with Galactica because why would a species chase one measly ship so far from their home territories? With the Cylons they and the humans are the only life in the galaxy so it makes sense they'd chase them to extinction, but not with any of the DQ races.
And they couldn't have there be one enemy chasing them through the entire galaxy like the Cylons with Galactica because why would a species chase one measly ship so far from their home territories? With the Cylons they and the humans are the only life in the galaxy so it makes sense they'd chase them to extinction, but not with any of the DQ races.
It took two years to get beyond the reach of the kazon (Kazon space was following them.) and the Vidiians (Though maybe not if the Think Tank is to be believed?), supposedly the Sikarians from Prime factors were within reach of 40 thousand light years of their home world instantaneously and could have struck back at Voyager whenever they felt like it, and as soon as Janeway gave the Hirogen Holographic technology, that would mean that they had agents who would use the communication network which extended all the way tot he Alpha Quadrant as a mass transit system for soldiers and assassins, not that Kathy wasn't still bumping into the Hirogen in season 7, and if they hadn't cheated, Borg space was 10 years from one side to another, and if they hadn't cheated Swarmie space would have taken 14 months to go around, how long did the guys from 40 days chase Voyager because the Swarmies should have been a month behind Voyager the whole way if not for their provincial nature, though the federation would be honor bound to send Janeway back for trial )and execution, since she sent Icheb to his death for tresspass later on.) if they made a case on the matter after all the thousands of swarmies they killed during that adventure, the Voth bridged a two year head start effortlessly with transwarp drive at their command in a fricking shuttle... And sometimes depending on the timeline it took Voyager a year to bisect Krenim space.
As much as I might mention that 24 manages to insert 24 hours of adventure in just 16 hours of programming each year that it's poor sport that Voyager couldn't have had a 4 or 5 episode arc covering only a week or two in the same region of space? Hell in DS9, the last 12 episodes was spaced in to cover about a week of story. It was like a daily soap more so than usual.
As much as I might mention that 24 manages to insert 24 hours of adventure in just 16 hours of programming each year that it's poor sport that Voyager couldn't have had a 4 or 5 episode arc covering only a week or two in the same region of space? Hell in DS9, the last 12 episodes was spaced in to cover about a week of story. It was like a daily soap more so than usual.
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Personally I loved the Vaadwar..I wished they had done more with those species trying to take over the ship...
It was very interesting. I didnt particularly care that much for Species 8472..however, I thought it was interesting that they were battling with the Borg a few times.
It was very interesting. I didnt particularly care that much for Species 8472..however, I thought it was interesting that they were battling with the Borg a few times. 
Cain shot her first officer in cold blood on the bridge as well as appropriated supplies from civilians leaving them to die. Between Cain and Adama I'd take Adama any day of the week.
Comparing Cain and Janeway is like comparing carrots and apples - there's two different universes involved. Unless you think they're worth comparing simply because they're both women...
