• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we love

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

I like Abrams Trek. It's Mission Impossible crossed with Star Trek. Not top totem pole of the franchise but still very enjoyable.

With 6 series sharing the name Star Trek, 726 episodes and 12 feature films; there is more than enough room for new interpretations.

Now THAT is an interesting way to put it! :bolian:

I have said before that I do not mind suspending my disbelief a bit ( or sometimes a bit more!) for my Star Trek, and entertaining and enjoyable are big priorities. My brain is educated enough to cleve the "maybe possible someday" from the "no way, ever"

I am 57 years old, and I have been a strong fan for 48 of those years, so the various PsTB must be doing something right.

At least, by my way of reckoning! :techman:
 
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

Everyone's entitled to chose what they do like and don't like. But, you seem to pick on something that has happened in Trek before yet I've never seen you bash it because you happen to like the material in question. Abrams says his films are a continuation and that is no harder to buy than accepting TMP as a continuation.

I like Star Trek: The Original Series, I like Star Trek: The Motion Picture and I like the Abrams films. You seem to be picking on the Abrams films for something that has been in abundance in all iterations of Star Trek.

The arguments are illogical because you can't argue logically about a movie. Enjoyment isn't derived from or contingent upon continuity or consistency. But if you don't like a movie you will see these things as flaws. If you like it you will not think they are a big deal. Then the two parties begin shouting at each other.
 
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

Everyone's entitled to chose what they do like and don't like. But, you seem to pick on something that has happened in Trek before yet I've never seen you bash it because you happen to like the material in question. Abrams says his films are a continuation and that is no harder to buy than accepting TMP as a continuation.

I like Star Trek: The Original Series, I like Star Trek: The Motion Picture and I like the Abrams films. You seem to be picking on the Abrams films for something that has been in abundance in all iterations of Star Trek.

The arguments are illogical because you can't argue logically about a movie. Enjoyment isn't derived from or contingent upon continuity or consistency. But if you don't like a movie you will see these things as flaws. If you like it you will not think they are a big deal. Then the two parties begin shouting at each other.
There are people who's enjoyment seems to be totally based on "continuity or consistency" both real and imagined. Hence "canon wars".
 
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

Just saw Rick's Twitter account for the very first time... I think it is a true testament to his love for Trek... I think he's a true Trekker; he was so much more than just a 'business man'... He LOVED Trek... I think the amount of hatred he gets is so unfair, but I am glad that many reactions in this thread are a bit more nuanced than the usual "Berman destroyed Trek" retoric I had gotten used to for years...
 
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

Wait, where did is say Pike was Kirk's age?
 
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

Wait, where did is say Pike was Kirk's age?
In "The Menagerie" Part I Mendez refers to Pike being "about your age" when talking to Kirk. I'v always assumed it was a flubbed or sloppily written line because Pike would definitely have had to be older than Kirk. Maybe the line was supposed to be for the audience to get the idea Pike was about Kirk's age during his heydey aboard the Enterprise.
 
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

Does anyone know who actually hired the following individuals:

Michael Piller
Ira Behr
Ronald D. Moore
Naren Shankar
René Echevarria

These are the best writers/producers for TNG and DS9, IMHO. If Berman hired them, he deserves a boatload of credit for that alone.

Berman had to be involved with all of them.

I'm sure Roddenberry also had a hand in hiring Michael Piller; Piller in turn hired Behr.

Moore was a freelance writer hired on the strength of his script for "The Bonding." Echevarria was likewise a freelancer invited on staff, I think, and Shankar was the science advisor on the show before moving up to the writer's office. With these last three, more than likely it was Berman, Piller and Jeri Taylor who did the final hiring.
 
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

By many accounts, Rick Berman was a very hands-on producer, personally overseeing every hour of Star Trek with his name on it, and being involved in or supervising every part of the process from the top to the bottom. If nothing else, we've got to admire his work ethic.
 
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

By many accounts, Rick Berman was a very hands-on producer, personally overseeing every hour of Star Trek with his name on it, and being involved in or supervising every part of the process from the top to the bottom. If nothing else, we've got to admire his work ethic.

It also means that if one hands him credit for everything that is right with Star Trek, that they also need to hand him blame for everything that went wrong.
 
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

By the way, Warped9, I'd love to see your reaction to this. (From a safe distance.)
That is a mind-numbing exercise seeing someone go through such mental contortions to force-fit two disparate things that do not fit together.
Hilariously, it's also entirely shot to hell by Into Darkness, defeating the entire purpose of that thought exercise (which is, of course in part, to defend the choices of Bad Robot in this new film series.)
 
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

By many accounts, Rick Berman was a very hands-on producer, personally overseeing every hour of Star Trek with his name on it, and being involved in or supervising every part of the process from the top to the bottom. If nothing else, we've got to admire his work ethic.

It also means that if one hands him credit for everything that is right with Star Trek, that they also need to hand him blame for everything that went wrong.

Yes, this point needs to be stated. I harbor no ill will towards Berman, but Trek didn't start having problems because Abrams got involved ;)
 
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

Warped9;10222639 We knew TOS Kirk's pedigree after his very first appearance in WNMHGB. TOS Kirk proved himself in his first 50 minutes of screen time. [/QUOTE said:
Well, kind of. I wouldn't argue that he displayed a "captainly" mien from the outset. There was no question that he embodied important characteristics of a strong leader, being decisive, forceful, and extremely self-possessed.

However, I think that one can suggest that his decisions in this maiden adventure belied an attempt to unequivocally pronounce his bonafides as an experienced, thoughtful, and prudent holder of such an exalted command. Putting asides the obvious dictates of the premiere of this type of show to hit the ground running, we see someone with a momentous brief to carry out, one with a significance that doesn't need any further set-up for even a casual viewer to appreciate, and how does Kirk proceed? As if the mission description must have a descriptor somewhere, underlined and in bold, Beat the Clock!


Kirk is faced with a number of uncertainties that bear directly on how this venture into the unknown should be handled, presumably with at least a modicum of safety and responsibility. What was the nature of the damage to the Valiant? What are the physical qualities of how the Barrier is constituted that resulted in the Valiant barely being able to escape their encounter with it? What lies behind its crew's frantic effort to gather information on esper abilities and how is the agency of the Barrier connected to that desperate search? Further, did such a connection point to some exceptional outlier being present among the Valiant's complement or could such an unknown effect just as easily impact crewmembers on Enterprise? Finally, what possible threat could have apparently forced the command decision of self-immolation to be made and those dire warnings left for those who would follow?


These factors would seem to suggest a sober, cautious course of action to be questioned, reasoned out, and then implemented. Perhaps dispatch a probe first and from results gauged by its progress, extrapolate the potential impacts on Enterprise. I know, the show is only an hour long and as the first offering, its creator and the network heads likely didn't want the audience's first impression of these explorers to be of timorous, risk averse plodders. Still, brevity could have been served with a limited amount of dialogue that would have indicated that this captain, this Kirk, would have ordered some kind of deeper analysis and consultation amongst the undoubtedly disparate and superlative experts on all relevant disciplines to this matter that he had to choose from in his crew. Such limited exposition could have simply informed us that unfortunately these efforts were of limited utility, if any, leaving slight option as to the next step.


But no. Kirk's leap into the void was portrayed as little more than a seat of the pants affair, recklessly and rashly entered into with no space, seemingly, for contingencies or precautions. What, if they took longer before making the foray into the Barrier, the time allotted for the mission would be exceeded and the entire crew would have to be paid overtime? :rolleyes: Perhaps, at some level, we were being shown an unthinking overconfidence in how their vastly advanced technological advantages over their predecessors would bail them out of any challenging situation, however daunting and unknown. Or, maybe it was a statement, uttered sotto voce, that this strong willed leader who seemed to have no lack of certitude in his bearing and manner, was in fact a commander still in the early days of his tenancy of the chair and that one could see vulnerabilities in his judgements, ones that we would presumably watch being addressed as each upcoming trial would add to his seasoning.


At the end of the episode, Kirk feelingly says that his now deceased friend didn't ask for what happened to him. I've long thought that at some point down the road it would have been appropriate for an introspective Kirk to question and reflect on his culpability for what befell Mitchell. It would certainly have made for an interesting sidebar perhaps, as a window on his interior struggles and doubts that we sometimes saw enacted. Having read very little of the novels, I'm curious if this experience was ever referenced in such a way as a further illumination of Kirk's character.
 
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

Does anyone know who actually hired the following individuals:

Michael Piller
Ira Behr
Ronald D. Moore
Naren Shankar
René Echevarria

These are the best writers/producers for TNG and DS9, IMHO. If Berman hired them, he deserves a boatload of credit for that alone.

Sure, but after a certain point, a good boss should depend on his staff to do the job without much micromanagement. As it is, it seems that a lot of the behind-the-scenes script notes involved Berman really getting into the writing process, when he should've just been providing oversight and maintaining vision instead. To clarify though, I don't think Berman took such a heavy hand during mid-TNG and he definitely loosened up with DS9; it was only once Voyager and then Enterprise came along that he essentially shacked up in the writers' room.
 
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

This comment seems more like a justification to ignoring a counter argument.

It is, an it's a typical tactic of those who criticise the new movies. But he in particular used to claim that everything (literally everything) after TOS was not canon.

Continuing to argue what is canon with him is a pointless exercise that many here grew very tired of a long time ago.

The new movies share the same "Old Spock" and are as connected as the people who own the property say. Regardless of what a few old codgers who cannot accept reality endlessly rant over.

And Warped9....

You used to have a much more convincing false civility with this topic. But in the last few months you have been given to ranting, swearing and generally far more openly agressive behaviour over these films simply at the mention of them.

You have repeatidly said you would not continue to discuss "those fucking films" (your words) more than once. Yet you travel out of TOS forums more often to behave this way.

It's not very becoming, it's not pleasant, it derails all the discussions the people of the board try to have about them and I can only assume from your several year long vendetta about them that this is what you want.

You have to accept sooner or later that these "fucking films" are the current Trek, will be until the next reboot, and are a softer reboot than was either expected or the next one likely will be.

Your are entitled to prefer one over the other, or both as I do, but your own attitude has become more hostile with each passing year, and this is not healthy for either side and certainly not a good reflection on you.

Either stay in TOS, take a more neutral, balanced tone to the other posters, or just keep being petulant and childish, and we can keep up this back and forth until one of us drops dead from it.

But really, what have you to gain from doing this for another 5 years?
Satisfaction.
Noted for future reference.
 
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

It is, an it's a typical tactic of those who criticise the new movies. But he in particular used to claim that everything (literally everything) after TOS was not canon.

Continuing to argue what is canon with him is a pointless exercise that many here grew very tired of a long time ago.

The new movies share the same "Old Spock" and are as connected as the people who own the property say. Regardless of what a few old codgers who cannot accept reality endlessly rant over.

And Warped9....

You used to have a much more convincing false civility with this topic. But in the last few months you have been given to ranting, swearing and generally far more openly agressive behaviour over these films simply at the mention of them.

You have repeatidly said you would not continue to discuss "those fucking films" (your words) more than once. Yet you travel out of TOS forums more often to behave this way.

It's not very becoming, it's not pleasant, it derails all the discussions the people of the board try to have about them and I can only assume from your several year long vendetta about them that this is what you want.

You have to accept sooner or later that these "fucking films" are the current Trek, will be until the next reboot, and are a softer reboot than was either expected or the next one likely will be.

Your are entitled to prefer one over the other, or both as I do, but your own attitude has become more hostile with each passing year, and this is not healthy for either side and certainly not a good reflection on you.

Either stay in TOS, take a more neutral, balanced tone to the other posters, or just keep being petulant and childish, and we can keep up this back and forth until one of us drops dead from it.

But really, what have you to gain from doing this for another 5 years?
Satisfaction.
Noted for future reference.
Seriously you will not find me on this topic all that often. Long strtches go by where the subject isn't even raised to commented on.
 
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

This comment seems more like a justification to ignoring a counter argument.

It is, an it's a typical tactic of those who criticise the new movies. But he in particular used to claim that everything (literally everything) after TOS was not canon.

Continuing to argue what is canon with him is a pointless exercise that many here grew very tired of a long time ago.

The new movies share the same "Old Spock" and are as connected as the people who own the property say. Regardless of what a few old codgers who cannot accept reality endlessly rant over.

And Warped9....

You used to have a much more convincing false civility with this topic. But in the last few months you have been given to ranting, swearing and generally far more openly agressive behaviour over these films simply at the mention of them.

You have repeatidly said you would not continue to discuss "those fucking films" (your words) more than once. Yet you travel out of TOS forums more often to behave this way.

It's not very becoming, it's not pleasant, it derails all the discussions the people of the board try to have about them and I can only assume from your several year long vendetta about them that this is what you want.

You have to accept sooner or later that these "fucking films" are the current Trek, will be until the next reboot, and are a softer reboot than was either expected or the next one likely will be.

Your are entitled to prefer one over the other, or both as I do, but your own attitude has become more hostile with each passing year, and this is not healthy for either side and certainly not a good reflection on you.

Either stay in TOS, take a more neutral, balanced tone to the other posters, or just keep being petulant and childish, and we can keep up this back and forth until one of us drops dead from it.

But really, what have you to gain from doing this for another 5 years?

Being a big baby, and thinking that he's going to get something, when in fact, he's getting nothing.

Like it as not, fellow fans, this franchise has to grow, change and be different, or it will join the other dead media IP's in the wasteland of yesteryear. Those that think Paramount/CBS will pay attention to them are being deluded; they won't. They have other fans to please, young and old, that don't give a shit about the purity of the original incarnation and love the new one, and will see the next offering, and the next, and the next, etc. You can't fight the whole world on this point.
 
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

This comment seems more like a justification to ignoring a counter argument.

It is, an it's a typical tactic of those who criticise the new movies. But he in particular used to claim that everything (literally everything) after TOS was not canon.

Continuing to argue what is canon with him is a pointless exercise that many here grew very tired of a long time ago.

The new movies share the same "Old Spock" and are as connected as the people who own the property say. Regardless of what a few old codgers who cannot accept reality endlessly rant over.

And Warped9....

You used to have a much more convincing false civility with this topic. But in the last few months you have been given to ranting, swearing and generally far more openly agressive behaviour over these films simply at the mention of them.

You have repeatidly said you would not continue to discuss "those fucking films" (your words) more than once. Yet you travel out of TOS forums more often to behave this way.

It's not very becoming, it's not pleasant, it derails all the discussions the people of the board try to have about them and I can only assume from your several year long vendetta about them that this is what you want.

You have to accept sooner or later that these "fucking films" are the current Trek, will be until the next reboot, and are a softer reboot than was either expected or the next one likely will be.

Your are entitled to prefer one over the other, or both as I do, but your own attitude has become more hostile with each passing year, and this is not healthy for either side and certainly not a good reflection on you.

Either stay in TOS, take a more neutral, balanced tone to the other posters, or just keep being petulant and childish, and we can keep up this back and forth until one of us drops dead from it.

But really, what have you to gain from doing this for another 5 years?

Being a big baby, and thinking that he's going to get something, when in fact, he's getting nothing.

Like it as not, fellow fans, this franchise has to grow, change and be different, or it will join the other dead media IP's in the wasteland of yesteryear. Those that think Paramount/CBS will pay attention to them are being deluded; they won't. They have other fans to please, young and old, that don't give a shit about the purity of the original incarnation and love the new one, and will see the next offering, and the next, and the next, etc. You can't fight the whole world on this point.
:guffaw:

You guys haven't even got a clue as to what you're talking about.
 
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

Just to bring this discussion back to Rick Berman - if I may - I've been watching my TNG extras, with interviews he's had in the past and I like the attitude he has about the show. His heart was definitely in the right place - and particularly - his belief that Gene Roddenberry's stamp on the show shouldn't be watered down, as such. That kind of Artist respect is very good to see. Unfortunately, I don't know very much about Rick, perhaps it's time to see his portfolio. Maybe he's done some shows and other things that I'm unaware of and should investigate. In any case, Berman seemed to care deeply about my Most Favoured and Cherished of ALL of the STAR TREKs out there, so far ... and that's saying alot!
 
Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

Just to bring this discussion back to Rick Berman - if I may - I've been watching my TNG extras, with interviews he's had in the past and I like the attitude he has about the show. His heart was definitely in the right place - and particularly - his belief that Gene Roddenberry's stamp on the show shouldn't be watered down, as such. That kind of Artist respect is very good to see. Unfortunately, I don't know very much about Rick, perhaps it's time to see his portfolio. Maybe he's done some shows and other things that I'm unaware of and should investigate. In any case, Berman seemed to care deeply about my Most Favoured and Cherished of ALL of the STAR TREKs out there, so far ... and that's saying alot!

According to IMDB, he produced one episode of The Big Blue Marble, was in one episode of Cheers and was a production assistant on Re-Animator (whatever that was).

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0075834/

That's it.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top