Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we love

[doubleohfive]

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

If someone wants to mount a reboot--fine, they can knock themselves out--but let them be honest about it rather than changing everything and yet claim it's still all the same.

Yes, let's just remake something and not be original rather than reboot the franchise and wipe the slate clean in order to try out new ideas. Yes, let's stick to a formula. Trek was in need of something new.

Do you even know what you wrote? If one is to do a reboot then do it rather then pretending. JJ claimed to be wiping the slate clean and yet he tries to backdoor the whole thing and say, "Well, it's really pretty much as it was before."

It's bad enough he makes a lousy film, but he's also bald-faced dishonest about what it is.

1) The film is not lousy.

2) Where is it written that JJ Abrams (or any producer, for that matter) is obliged to be honest with you? Do you know anything about JJ Abrams? Or filmmaking in general? Are you familiar with magic? And the necessary element of surprise therein? Are you familiar with the surprising similarities between filmmaking and magic? It's pretty damn obvious you aren't. I was wrong too though. You're not just a troll, you're a damn attention whore.

blah, blah, blah, blah...

Back at you.

I concede sir. Your skill in debate and scholarly discourse are immaculate and compare to none. Well said!

 

[Warped9]

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

Yes, let's just remake something and not be original rather than reboot the franchise and wipe the slate clean in order to try out new ideas. Yes, let's stick to a formula. Trek was in need of something new.

Do you even know what you wrote? If one is to do a reboot then do it rather then pretending. JJ claimed to be wiping the slate clean and yet he tries to backdoor the whole thing and say, "Well, it's really pretty much as it was before."

It's bad enough he makes a lousy film, but he's also bald-faced dishonest about what it is.

blah, blah, blah, blah...

Back at you.

So what? It's just a damn movie. Science fiction, Motion picture fakery, None of this stuff is real. None of these characters are real nor will they ever be real. Why are you so hostile when I'm trying to have a civil discussion with you?

If someone claims that such-and-such a film establishes a given element then I can just as rightly point out that it does no such thing.

1 + 1 = 2 and no amount of mental contortion can make 1 + 1 = 13.

Same to you.

 

[doubleohfive]

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

You definitely have that whole "redundancy" thing down pat, don't you? Spoiler alert: this might be why nobody takes your criticisms seriously.

 

[CaptainMurdock]

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

Do you even know what you wrote? If one is to do a reboot then do it rather then pretending. JJ claimed to be wiping the slate clean and yet he tries to backdoor the whole thing and say, "Well, it's really pretty much as it was before."

It's bad enough he makes a lousy film, but he's also bald-faced dishonest about what it is.


Back at you.

So what? It's just a damn movie. Science fiction, Motion picture fakery, None of this stuff is real. None of these characters are real nor will they ever be real. Why are you so hostile when I'm trying to have a civil discussion with you?

If someone claims that such-and-such a film establishes a given element then I can just as rightly point out that it does no such thing.

1 + 1 = 2 and no amount of mental contortion can make 1 + 1 = 13.

Most illogical. Enjoy living in a world where movies can make you so bitter towards people you don't even know. I'll continue to enjoy what movies I like and have the freedom to dislike movies and not be a insufferable, miserable person to people who happen to like what I don't. Have a nice day.

 

[Warped9]

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

You definitely have that whole "redundancy" thing down pat, don't you? Spoiler alert: this might be why nobody takes your criticisms seriously.

Since this is a public forum I will refrain from using language you so richly deserve.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

TOS' continuity is pretty shaky. Trek as a whole hangs together in very broad strokes only (Pike is Kirk's age according to "Menagerie", meaning he captained the Enterprise aged 21). No amount of True Believing™ makes one set of retcons and contradictions okay while all the others are heresy against doctrine.

 

[doubleohfive]

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

You definitely have that whole "redundancy" thing down pat, don't you? Spoiler alert: this might be why nobody takes your criticisms seriously.

Since this is a public forum I will refrain from using language you so richly deserve.

Please, feel free to come to TNZ and share your thoughts. I welcome it.

Unless you choose not to. In which case...

Warped9's ability to express his opinions: 2003-2009, 2014?

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

You definitely have that whole "redundancy" thing down pat, don't you? Spoiler alert: this might be why nobody takes your criticisms seriously.

Since this is a public forum I will refrain from using language you so richly deserve.

Well, you already called him the b-word four times, plus however many were implied by the ellipsis.

blah, blah, blah, blah...

Back at you.

I'm not sure what "blah, blah, blah, blah..." means in your language, but it sounds like a pretty harsh retort.

 

[EnriqueH]

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

Realistically I think it would have been healthy for him to step aside, but on another level I suspect he couldn't, either because it was a steady pay check (and nobody turns down a steady pay check)...

While I agree with most of what you said, this part is definitely not true.

In fact, there have been several people associated with Trek over the years who have turned down steady -- and sizeable -- paychecks because they disagreed with the direction it was going or what they had been asked to do.

Harold Livingston was so incensed by Roddenberry's continued meddling in the script for TMP that he walked away from a $10,000 per week (!) paycheck.

Harve Bennett felt creatively drained as far as utilizing the original cast was concerned, and walked away from a guaranteed four years worth of substantial pay and the producership of two movies, because Paramount was insisting on a classic cast film for Star Trek VI.

Ira Steven Behr felt that the conditions placed on writers of TNG hamstrung them and hurt the drama, so he walked away from his steady paycheck as a producer following the third season.

So, yes, folks do step away from steady paychecks in the entertainment industry all the time for creative and personal reasons. I cannot speak to Rick Berman's personal finances, but I would have to think that there would have been a point where he could have reasonably stepped aside and let someone else take over.

The problem is that neither Bennett or Livingston worked very much after leaving Star Trek. They certainly didn't have anything very high profile that I recall.

 

[BillJ]

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

The proof is all over the damned screen. If folks choose to not see and grasp it then it's not my problem.

But for those who might need some help I'll give you but one small example. If Chekov is in his early 20s during the original 5-year mission of the Prime continuity then he would have been about 10 or less during the Pike era. Yet in JJtrek here he is at 17 (as stated onscreen) during the Pike era. So in this supposedly same continuity they've aged a prime character at least ten years (probably more) than he was originally. And other characters' ages are off as well such as Sulu and Uhura to name just two.

Aren't you pointing out a flaw that exists in Star Trek: The Motion Picture? Where everyone looks ten years older but it has only been two-and-a-half years at most since TOS? Plus, the universe looks completely different.

Everyone's entitled to chose what they do like and don't like. But, you seem to pick on something that has happened in Trek before yet I've never seen you bash it because you happen to like the material in question. Abrams says his films are a continuation and that is no harder to buy than accepting TMP as a continuation.

I like Star Trek: The Original Series, I like Star Trek: The Motion Picture and I like the Abrams films. You seem to be picking on the Abrams films for something that has been in abundance in all iterations of Star Trek.

 

[BillJ]

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

The problem is that neither Bennett or Livingston worked very much after leaving Star Trek. They certainly didn't have anything very high profile that I recall.

Bennett worked on two TV series that took him to his mid- to late-60's after his time on Star Trek was done:

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0071790/

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

The proof is all over the damned screen. If folks choose to not see and grasp it then it's not my problem.

But for those who might need some help I'll give you but one small example. If Chekov is in his early 20s during the original 5-year mission of the Prime continuity then he would have been about 10 or less during the Pike era. Yet in JJtrek here he is at 17 (as stated onscreen) during the Pike era. So in this supposedly same continuity they've aged a prime character at least ten years (probably more) than he was originally. And other characters' ages are off as well such as Sulu and Uhura to name just two.

Aren't you pointing out a flaw that exists in Star Trek: The Motion Picture? Where everyone looks ten years older but it has only been two-and-a-half years at most since TOS? Plus, the universe looks completely different.

Plus, is V'Ger's energy cloud 82 AU in diameter or 2 AU in diameter? It was one thing, but now it's different. Clearly it must exist in some new continuity where there's a Voyager 6 and the hypothetical crew can number in tens of thousands in one universe or be a crew of a thousand ten miles tall in the other. Or a continuity where I don't think about Decker joining with an entity described as a "child" in a new and disturbing way now. New continuities for everyone!

 

[Zeke]

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

You guys do realize that the post that triggered this fight...

I like JJ Kirk. He's exciting.

...was just playing off a line from the movie, right?

By the way, Warped9, I'd love to see your reaction to this. (From a safe distance.)

 

[HIjol]

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

You guys do realize that the post that triggered this fight...

I like JJ Kirk. He's exciting.

...was just playing off a line from the movie, right?

By the way, Warped9, I'd love to see your reaction to this. (From a safe distance.)

I'll second that emotion. A lot of reading, but very interesting.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

You guys do realize that the post that triggered this fight...

I like JJ Kirk. He's exciting.

...was just playing off a line from the movie, right?

By the way, Warped9, I'd love to see your reaction to this. (From a safe distance.)

Yes, but I actually like JJ's Kirk and thought it was a funny way to say it. And I think calling Kirk "an idiot and an asshole" is a gross mis-characterization. Arrogant is accurate to a degree and he's is very cocky, but so was (GR?) Kirk.

 

[CrazyMatt]

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

I disagree with some of Berman's choices, but I do agree that he gets too much of the blame and not enough of the credit.

It's generally agreed that TNG got really good with the third season -- though I still have a fondness for the first two. The third season is when Berman really fully took over the reins from Roddenberry, and where Michael Piller took over for Maurice Hurley. Yet despite the fact that these two things happened simultaneously, Berman's name is only invoked when discussing the bad, and Piller is always the one credited with the good.

Yes, I think Berman does deserve some credit for the things we love about that era of Star Trek, just has he also deserves some of the blame for the things we hate.

Well put.

 

[Warped9]

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

By the way, Warped9, I'd love to see your reaction to this. (From a safe distance.)

That is a mind-numbing exercise seeing someone go through such mental contortions to force-fit two disparate things that do not fit together.

Or more succinctly,

 

[CrazyMatt]

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

Does anyone know who actually hired the following individuals:

Michael Piller
Ira Behr
Ronald D. Moore
Naren Shankar
René Echevarria

These are the best writers/producers for TNG and DS9, IMHO. If Berman hired them, he deserves a boatload of credit for that alone.

 

[fireproof78]

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

Also don't forget Kirk prime lived in a reality where he had his father to Mentor him and mold him into the professional, brash Captain Kirk we know and love.

JJKirk didn't have his father. He had a possibly abusive step father whom Kirk resented enough to steal his car and drive it off a quarry. Without a father figure in his early years he developed differently. He didn't have a sense of discipline until he met Pike. Pike became his father figure and mentor and set him on the path to becoming a Starfleet officer.

A child with a good father and a child without a father can be very different people.

Agree, 100%.

nuKirk is different, is an "asshole", a jerk, and undisciplined, because of a different backstory. He isn't even in the Academy until Pike pushes him, and challenges him to "do better." The man has all the potential of Prime Kirk, and is wasting it. Yeah, he's a jerk.

Another scene that I absolutely enjoy, especially Pine's performance, is the palatable sense of pain when he asks Prime Spock if he knew his father, and Spock answers "Yes." nuKirk's face is one of pain and loss.

I don't necessarily like nuKirk, but, I understand him.

I prefer to like a hero rather than want to punch him in the mouth.

Its still no excuse for shitty writing. There's nothing established that Prime Kirk had a father growing up. Indeed, although not canon, Diane Carey in her novel Final Frontier had Prime Kirk lose his father at a young age. And there are lots of people who overcome tragedy when young to still be decent and well rounded people.

The proof is all over the damned screen. If folks choose to not see and grasp it then it's not my problem.

But for those who might need some help I'll give you but one small example. If Chekov is in his early 20s during the original 5-year mission of the Prime continuity then he would have been about 10 or less during the Pike era. Yet in JJtrek here he is at 17 (as stated onscreen) during the Pike era. So in this supposedly same continuity they've aged a prime character at least ten years (probably more) than he was originally. And other characters' ages are off as well such as Sulu and Uhura to name just two.

Aren't you pointing out a flaw that exists in Star Trek: The Motion Picture? Where everyone looks ten years older but it has only been two-and-a-half years at most since TOS? Plus, the universe looks completely different.

Everyone's entitled to chose what they do like and don't like. But, you seem to pick on something that has happened in Trek before yet I've never seen you bash it because you happen to like the material in question. Abrams says his films are a continuation and that is no harder to buy than accepting TMP as a continuation.

I like Star Trek: The Original Series, I like Star Trek: The Motion Picture and I like the Abrams films. You seem to be picking on the Abrams films for something that has been in abundance in all iterations of Star Trek.

Agreed. I feel like Abrams gets picked on for basically using elements from all of Trek, just supercharged and put on the big screen. TOS was never remarkably consistent in its continuity every time (James R. Kirk, anyone?) nor was it expected to be, at least for the time.

I take Abrams Trek at its face value. When it says an alternate reality, I accept that as such because such things have been shown in Trek before. It isn't perfect but it is enjoyable. I don't even have to go through the exercises that the linked article did to accept Abrams Trek in the continuity.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

I like Abrams Trek. It's Mission Impossible crossed with Star Trek. Not top totem pole of the franchise but still very enjoyable.

With 6 series sharing the name Star Trek, 726 episodes and 12 feature films; there is more than enough room for new interpretations.